Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

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rightviewftw
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:55 pm

Monk Jag wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:57 pm
Hi all

Sarath - Thanks for the invitation to contribute to this discussion and sorry about the late reply as I have been away on retreat and when I got back, was hit with a mountain of work.

The text is quite clear from the Buddha's lips on this matter, it is the commentators that want it to be otherwise as it does not fit neatly into their much-loved (and deeply attached to) pre-conceived understanding of Dhamma through the distorted lenses of commentarial literature.

If you read the texts as is, there is little to ponder. Unfortunately too many monks confuse the work of the Buddha with the work of commentators, and one of these two has a greater authority than the other. This has led of course to misunderstandings and misrepresentations of the Buddha's teaching and is a case of "expanding on what should not be expanded on". The Buddha said that these people slander the Tathagatta: "Those who expand what should not be expanded, and those who do not expand those teachings that require expansion".

Monks who try to force Christian values of "suicide = hell" in some automatic fashion do not understand even the 5 precepts no matter how many times they chant them.​ The Buddha himself also warned about making conclusions in a simple way about Kamma, and that any man who tried to work out Kamma would go mad. So the idea of a simple suicide = hell, and suicide= bad sila is clearly mistaken and has no place in an academic study on the topic.

If anyone can show textual evidence from the suttas that categorically shows that Arahants are incapable of killing themselves, then I am more than happy to investigate. I have (in reading the Suttas) not found such evidence. This is in contrast to the references in a few suttas indicating that Arahants killed themselves due to illness. The burden of proof here is on those who claim arahants cannot kill themselves, not the other way around, as the text clearly indicates that Arahants have indeed "Used the knife" and did so "Blamelessly". "Blameless" means fully enlightened.

The idea that the commentators were also around at the time and were reading the minds of the monks is clearly indefensible. If this was the case, then Sariputta would have known that the Bhikku in question was "Blameless" as decreed by the Buddha, and would not have worried about that monk as he was already a man perfected. So then we have an unlikely, and untenable alternative position of Sariputta reading the mind of another monk and getting his attainment wrong as the Buddha told Sariputta afterwards that he was "blameless" when he used the knife.

Apologists (commentators) will of course try to make things fit by invoking other non-Buddhavaccana comments like "As he was dying, his mind became free of the defilements, and thus he was blameless then". This is merely a convenient argument based on ideology with no in-text proof whatsoever (and, no...commentary is not proof when it validates itself). This is why I find commentaries nothing more than occasionally helpful footnotes. I do not give it full authority over the Suttas, and where there are discrepancies, the Suttas (for me) always trumps commentaries and Abhidhamma. Any misunderstanding that arises after reading a sutta is usually due to a lack of wisdom rather than a defficiency in the text itself, and hence this means I have more work to do rather than simply agree with a commentary that has no basis or qualification any more than the rambling thoughts of modern-day monks like myself....just another commentator!!!

Hope this helps!
+1 and i would elaborate on the rediculousness of the commentary position on Venerable Channa's story. Truth is indeed that is has not been proclaimed but more than that the view really does not have a footing in a comperhensive understanding, it just doesn't, there is no two ways it can go and one version is as good as the other. One is not-version and burden of proof as Bhante Jag and I have been saying all along, the burden of proof is actually on the commentators.
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"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:14 pm

he's rejecting a commentary to support his own
his interpretation isn't proof, he can't rightly appeal to 'no proof' when he doesn't have any either. the text is at least partly ambiguous
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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rightviewftw
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:58 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:14 pm
he's rejecting a commentary to support his own
his interpretation isn't proof, he can't rightly appeal to 'no proof' when he doesn't have any either. the text is at least partly ambiguous
how is this a motive?

when did disagreement with a position became an agenda? Both positions have an agenda in that case.
Actually burden of proof is on commentator positions. Has been all along, please do explain why it is not so.

It is not a position of his own, there are reasonable people who understand him.
he can't rightly appeal to 'no proof' when he doesn't have any either
actually we can, this is a fairly well established truth. Burden of proof.

your side contradicts the obvious by expanding on what is proclaimed as impossible, you also overcomplicate the arahant suicide Sutta and it is not the most obvious explaination, therefore it is you who have to prove things;

Also best of your Suttas which are not a direct statements and never will be viewed as such are based on the term "paṭiviratō hoti" which is disputed actually.

So you are commentary position arguing against Abhidhamma and Sutta position which you cannot even comperehend.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by justindesilva » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:00 am

At the situlpavuva historical site in down south Sri lanka , it is said 12000 arhant monks lived and meditated early nearly before 1000 years. There are stone caves where they lived . During this time a famine came which brought a scarcity of food. It is believed ( vetified from present resident priests) that these arhants too wished and attained nibbana.

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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:10 am

what i'm saying here rightview is to me this is a clear case of filling a cognitive bias. the sutta doesn't say the monk was an arahant before he killed himself, all we know is he was an arahant after he attempted suicide and that he said he would be blameless and the buddha said he was blameless. all i know how to do currently is ask you to take a step back and let yourself perceive that there is very much room for the commentators' position. which, btw, i don't care what that position is it is a coincidence as i see it that it accords with my view. i'm also not 100% sold but the way i see it is thus. it's been almost a whole day so i may have repeated a few points. i am not as eager to debate as you are, we are not having a contest just trying to arrive at the truth and on a delicate matter. i dont lack understanding of the monk's position i just dont agree, and i dont value abhidhamma, just as an aside
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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rightviewftw
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:30 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:10 am
what i'm saying here rightview is to me this is a clear case of filling a cognitive bias. the sutta doesn't say the monk was an arahant before he killed himself, all we know is he was an arahant after he attempted suicide and that he said he would be blameless and the buddha said he was blameless. all i know how to do currently is ask you to take a step back and let yourself perceive that there is very much room for the commentators' position. which, btw, i don't care what that position is it is a coincidence as i see it that it accords with my view. i'm also not 100% sold but the way i see it is thus. it's been almost a whole day so i may have repeated a few points. i am not as eager to debate as you are, we are not having a contest just trying to arrive at the truth and on a delicate matter. i dont lack understanding of the monk's position i just dont agree, and i dont value abhidhamma, just as an aside
Actually the Buddha said "Did he not tell you that he was Blameless?" This seemingly invites Sariputta to take position "I think Channa may have lied" and the Sariputta does not take this position.
Why would the Buddha say it like that, think about it... They are Arahants, they do not speak in vain. The Buddha clearly did not confirm a lie there.

Furthermore it is quite the assumption to assume that Channa was not an Aharahnt as Sariputta spent a lot of time questioning him and could not establish that he was not an Arahant, assuming that this Putujhana after having pretended to be an Arahnt with a death wish, this Putujhana having tricked Sariputta then Attains Arahantship. What was the thing you were saying about craving for non-existence? Nor does anybody at any point deny his attainment... I can not imagine you have thought this thru and still believe it.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:09 am

ok you are correct, see? it appears to be an intricate sutta with minimal construction. i would read the sutta again but i would rather let it hang around in my subconscious
i would not call disenchantment aversion. can take a look at this sutta:

“To the blameless man
Who is always seeking purity,
Even a hair-tip of evil
Seems the size of a cloud.

I don’t long for death;
I don’t long for life;
I will lay down this body,
Aware and mindful.

I don’t long for death;
I don’t long for life;
I await my time,
Like a worker waiting for their wages.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/thag17.2

really i dont know what i'm talking about, i just read suttas and see how they make me feel. if i dont understand them i will move on. was looking for something else pertinent to the topic, stopped when i came to this not sure if relevant http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/angu ... 0-060.html
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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rightviewftw
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:28 am

nice find, never seen that passage. Also the ten perceptions, ty
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

rightviewftw
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:29 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:09 am
i would not call disenchantment aversion. can take a look at this sutta:
I was probably thinking about daughter of Anathapindika. However it is definitely wrong to say that about Arahants, thanks for point it out to me.
"They are disenchanted with suffering" not "averse to it" you are completely right.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:27 pm

I don't delight in death, don't delight in living. I await my time like a worker his wage. I don't delight in death, don't delight in living. I await my time mindful, alert.

—Thag 14.1
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:27 pm

"And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by using? [...]
"Reflecting appropriately, he uses medicinal requisites that are used for curing the sick simply to counteract any pains of illness that have arisen and for maximum freedom from disease.

"The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to use these things [in this way] do not arise for him when he uses them [in this way]. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by using.

And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, endures. He tolerates cold, heat, hunger, & thirst; the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; ill-spoken, unwelcome words & bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, disagreeable, displeasing, & menacing to life. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to tolerate these things do not arise for him when he tolerates them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Bhikkhus! This wrong view is called a false belief, a jungle of false beliefs, a desert of false beliefs, a thorny spike of false beliefs, an agitation of false beliefs and a fetter of false beliefs. Bhikkhus! The ignorant worldling who is bound up with the fetter of false beliefs cannot escape rebirth, ageing, death, grief, lamentation, pain, distress and despair. I declare that he cannot escape dukkha.

From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
nibbāna is the deathless, there is no birth, the consciousness of the arahant is object-less.

"But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple, O monks, when he is touched by a painful feeling, he will not worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. It is one kind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart, but was not hit by a second dart following the first one. So this person experiences feelings caused by a single dart only. It is similar with a well-taught noble disciple: when touched by a painful feeling, he will no worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. He experiences one single feeling, a bodily one.

"Having been touched by that painful feeling, he does not resist (and resent) it. Hence, in him no underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness. And why not? As a well-taught noble disciple he knows of an escape from painful feelings other than by enjoying sensual happiness. Then in him who does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness, no underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He knows, according to facts, the arising and ending of those feelings, and the gratification, the danger and the escape connected with these feelings. In him who knows thus, no underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one who is not fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called a well-taught noble disciple who is not fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not fettered to suffering, this I declare.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nypo.html

if an arahant did kill themself, it would be not to burden the living, but really what a tremendous chance to make merit, taking care of a terminally ill ariya.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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