Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
SarathW
Posts: 9412
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by SarathW » Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:59 am

In the following video Bhante Jag made the following comments.

- Killing doe not include killing oneself.

- Sotapanna can kill a living being. He is only incapable of doing five heinous kamma.

- Arahant can kill themselves as they are blameless. Blameless means that they do not have another life. (Can someone give me Sutta support for this?)

- The three Arahants committed suicide as per Sutta were Arahants before they commit the act.

I know there are many discussions in this forum about this issue.
However it is interesting to listen to Bhante Jag and discuss this point again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XKG5GexwyA
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

justindesilva
Posts: 679
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by justindesilva » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:16 am

It is time not to be interested in slogans or sermons arising from one's thoughts and look in to our own inner selves and go iñ the noble eight fold path thus saving our previous time.
The five precepts properly practised will guide one to be on the noble eight fold path for a start.

User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 3733
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:05 am

I do not think any Arahant will kill himself or herself.

"Does he who will not be reborn feel any painful feeling?"

Cases like that of Godhika Thera show that Arahantship was attained after the action that caused their death.
Last edited by Bhikkhu Pesala on Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
AIM ForumsPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

SarathW
Posts: 9412
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by SarathW » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:45 am

Bhante Jag talking about Godhika Thero and he think that he was an Arahant before he took the knife.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2765
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:50 am

SarathW wrote:Bhante Jag talking about Godhika Thero and he think that he was an Arahant before he took the knife.
It is fine he thinks that . Of course though his ideas differ from Theravada.

santa100
Posts: 2931
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by santa100 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:15 pm

SarathW wrote:Bhante Jag made the following comments..."Sotapanna can kill a living being. He is only incapable of doing five heinous kamma"...
It's bad enough for one blind man to head toward a cliff. But it's much much worse if that blind man leads thousands of others down the cliff with him. Bhante Jag needs to carefully study AN 9.12, MN 48, SN 55.5, SN 12.41 before making any more claim like above.

davidbrainerd
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by davidbrainerd » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:45 pm

justindesilva wrote:It is time not to be interested in slogans or sermons arising from one's thoughts and look in to our own inner selves and go iñ the noble eight fold path thus saving our previous time.
Agreed. But as far as public facing Buddhism goes you can get yourself onto great trouble with that one. The same type of guys wanting to teach euthanasia (but controlling thmselves and waiting until the groundwork has been prepared) have been laying the groundwork of "no self, no inner core" so that you will not be able to look to your own inner self because they will have already convinced you it doesn't exist. And then when they finally come out in favor of euthanasia, you'll agree with them. That is their obvious hope.

davidbrainerd
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by davidbrainerd » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:53 pm

One more thought though. Its well known or should be that Mahavira (Buddha's contemporary, leader of Jainism) starved himself to death. There was apparently a shramanic tradition of taking ahimsa or not killing living beings so far as to stop eating, and thus allow oneself to starve to death in order to prevent oneself from further killing living beings. But they didn't stab or poison thmselves. They starved thmselves, and meditated to control the pain. Someone should tell this guy "fine, kill yourself, but do it the hard way like a real shramana, not like a coward Western atheist."

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19928
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:59 am

Greetings,
robertk wrote:
SarathW wrote:Bhante Jag talking about Godhika Thero and he think that he was an Arahant before he took the knife.
It is fine he thinks that . Of course though his ideas differ from Theravada.
True, but that idea does not differ from the raw sutta account.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

SarathW
Posts: 9412
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by SarathW » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:14 am

It is hard for me to believe an Arahant will end his/her life before exhausting his life energy. (In Sinhalese we call this Ayu)
I also believe that the Arahants has the ability to end his life at will without euthanasia. (The way Buddha did)
===============


Kappam va tittheyya kappavasesam va. Comy. takes kappa not as "world-period" or "aeon," but as ayu-kappa, "life span," and explains avasesa (usually "remainder") by "in excess."
Comy.: "He may stay alive completing the life span pertaining to men at the given time. (Sub. Comy.: the maximum life span.) Kappavasesa: 'in excess' (atireka), i.e., more or less above the hundred years said to be the normally highest life expectation."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Sylvester » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:59 am

SarathW wrote:In the following video Bhante Jag made the following comments.

- Killing doe not include killing oneself.
Ven Dhammanando made an insightful observation about suicide here - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... de#p343438

Apparently, a suicide attempt is only a dukkaṭa offence.

chownah
Posts: 7333
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by chownah » Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:43 am

davidbrainerd wrote:One more thought though. Its well known or should be that Mahavira (Buddha's contemporary, leader of Jainism) starved himself to death. There was apparently a shramanic tradition of taking ahimsa or not killing living beings so far as to stop eating, and thus allow oneself to starve to death in order to prevent oneself from further killing living beings. But they didn't stab or poison thmselves. They starved thmselves, and meditated to control the pain. Someone should tell this guy "fine, kill yourself, but do it the hard way like a real shramana, not like a coward Western atheist."
Why should we tell them that?
chownah

udani
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:46 am

Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by udani » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:24 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:I do not think any Arahant will kill himself or herself.

"Does he who will not be reborn feel any painful feeling?"

Cases like that of Godhika Thera show that Arahantship was attained after the action that caused there death.
There is 4 Arahants commit suicide Channa, Godhika and wakkali and vesali . Channa and Wakkali get suicide after attaining to the Arahantship.

SarathW
Posts: 9412
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by SarathW » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:47 pm

A person who attain fourth Jhana has neither pain nor pleasure.
They are imbued with equanimity.
Are you saying these four Arahants (if they were Arahants before the act of taking knife) were not attained any Jhana?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

udani
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:46 am

Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by udani » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:39 am

SarathW wrote:A person who attain fourth Jhana has neither pain nor pleasure.
They are imbued with equanimity.
Are you saying these four Arahants (if they were Arahants before the act of taking knife) were not attained any Jhana?
Im not saying this. These are on thripitaka. read channaowada sutta adn wakkali sutta. then you can get clear idea. and do you have any experience in 4 th Jhana, And how you think arahants are always sit on 4th jana? there are 2 kind of arahants in this wold.
chetho wimuktha(Ubathogaga vimuktha) and pranna vimuktha.
chetho mikutha arahant is the certain individual remains touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, and — having seen with discernment — his fermentations are ended.
pranna wimuktha is the certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, but — having seen with discernment — his fermentations are ended.

All arahants do not have super natural powers.In the Nidāna Samyutta (S.II.120-6) a group of bhikkhus who proclaimed their attainment of arahantship, when questioned by their colleagues about it, denied that they had developed the five kinds of super-knowledge—namely, psychic power (iddhi-vidhā), divine ear (dibba-sota), knowledge of others' minds (paracitta-vijānana), power to recall to mind past births (pubbenivāsānussati) and knowledge regarding other peoples' rebirths (cutū-papatti)—and declared that they had attained arahantship by developing wisdom (paññā-vimutti).



And also do you think that arahants has neither pain nor pleasure. they have passa wedhana and sancha, that means they feel all Dhukka whedana, "Sukha Wedhana" and "Adukkhama Sukha wedana". but they did not make sanskara.. they did not make any attachement.
Buddha also had pain. In some sutta Load buddha saild to saripuththa thero " Sariputta please continue discussion.. I have a back pain and im going to have a rest". didn't you read those sutta.

People expect super powers from arahants. Thats why they couldnt identify arahats even they have chance to meet them.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], JohnK, kamui, robertk, Wizard in the Forest and 67 guests