Yoniso Manasikara

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D1W1
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Yoniso Manasikara

Post by D1W1 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:09 am

Hello all,

What does yoniso manasikara and ayoniso manasikara mean?

In Ayoniso manasikara Sutta (SN 9.11), it says:
Thoughts of sensuality, thoughts of ill will, thoughts of doing harm
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

But I've also read ayoniso manasikara means believing something false as true, impermanent as permanent, non-self as self, etc..
In short what does yoniso manasikara mean? Thanks all.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Yoniso Manasikara

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:22 pm

The PTS Dictionary definition is systematic and thorough.
PTS Dictionary wrote:3. thoroughness, knowledge, insight Nett 40. -- ayoni superficiality in thought S i.203 ("muddled ways" Mrs. Rh. D.). -- yoniso (abl.) "down to its origin or foundation," i. e. thoroughly, orderly, wisely, properly, judiciously S i.203 ("in ordered governance" K.S. i.259); D i.118 (wisely); It 30 (āraddha āsavānaŋ khayāya); Pug 25; Vism 30, 132, 599; PpA 31. Opp. ayoniso disorderly improperly Pug 21; DhA i.327; PvA 113, 278. -- Esp. frequent in phrase yoniso manasikāra "fixing one's attention with a purpose or thoroughly," proper attention, "having thorough method in one's thought" (K.S. i.259) Ps i.85 sq.; It 9; J i.116; Miln 32; Nett 8, 40, 50, 127; Vism 132; PvA 63. See also manasikāra. -- Opp. ayoniso manasikāra disorderly or distracted attention D iii.273; VbhA 148; ThA 79. In BSk. the same phrase: yoniśo manasikāraḥ Divy 488; AvŚ i.122; ii.112 (Speyer: "the right & true insight, as the object of consideration really is"). See further on term Dial. iii.218 ("systematized attention"); K.S. i.131; ii.6 ("radical grasp").
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Nicolas
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Re: Yoniso Manasikara

Post by Nicolas » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:20 pm

Sabbāsava Sutta (MN 2) wrote: “Bhikkhus, I say that the destruction of the taints is for one who knows and sees, not for one who does not know and see. Who knows and sees what? Wise attention and unwise attention. When one attends unwisely, unarisen taints arise and arisen taints increase. When one attends wisely, unarisen taints do not arise and arisen taints are abandoned.
[...]
“This is how he attends unwisely: ‘Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I become in the future?’ Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the present thus: ‘Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where will it go?’
[...]
“He attends wisely: ‘This is suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’
See also pages 69-82 of Bhikkhu Analayo's From Grasping to Emptiness – Excursions into the Thought-world of the Pāli Discourses (2).

Also, see these DhammaWheel topics:
Yoniso manasikara: the suttas and the practice
Pali Term: Yoniso Manasikāro
Establishment of right attention / Yoniso manasikara

justindesilva
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Re: Yoniso Manasikara

Post by justindesilva » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:37 pm

With reference to ayoniso manasikara the sutta SN9.11
Explains the priest in meditation (as referred to in the sutta) is being chewed up by thoughts relinquishishing
What is inappropriately contemplated. And with inappropriate attention.
It is explained that keeping the mind on Dhamma and sangha the virtues will arrive at joy and rapture.
During a sermon the followers are requested to attend with yoniso manasikara which means appropriate attention of the mind to gain insight of dharma.
With mettha.

spacenick
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Re: Yoniso Manasikara

Post by spacenick » Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:22 pm

Yoni=womb. Tracking back things to their womb / seeing how things originate.

In other terms: "walking up" (or even, moonwalking!) the chain of dependent origination to see how things come to be, how they are maintained, how they cease; from the perspective of understanding how you yourself are creating suffering in your experience.

Ayoniso manasikara: any form of attention that is blind to how things originate. Taking things as real, satisfactory, permanent, self. Forming intentions, fabricating moods and more complex emotions based on blindness to the process of dependent origination.

Often translated as "appropriate / inappropriate" attention, but in my opinion that conveys an idea that there is some thing that you should pay attention to (and others to which you shouldn't), while the general idea is that you want to understand how all things (good or bad) are own-made, fabricated, consequent upon avijja, and how if that is not seen, it results in pain (and also, when it is seen, to make very conscious the release or freedom that lies there! Nibbana isn't far away!)

All the 'techniques' and meditation instructions given by the Buddha are practical applications of yoniso manasikara. For instance, holding the perception that everything that arises at the sense doors are "not me" "not my self".

A practical example of ayoniso manasikara is to indulge in thoughts such as "why did this guy spoke to me so bad? He was so rude! So impolite!" instead of "there is unpleasant ear-contact, there are unpleasant thoughts, there is unpleasant contraction in the body, there seems to be a correlation between that unpleasant ear-contact and a mood of anger, the mood of anger seems to be connected to that pain in the body", and so forth.

So to put 'appropriate attention' within the bigger picture of the path, the idea is to gradually refine one's seeing of the correlation between things (it might start "grossly", like, when there's a mood of anger, it fuels angry thoughts), to arrive at the point where one sees that the troublemaker is the force of personalization, own-making, sankharaming.

Without own-making, fabricating things or claiming things to be one self (on one side, sankharaming is pretty much equal to kamma, but on the other side, it is also identification with the results of kamma, so it is a kind of "double-sided" version of kamma), things do not come to be. Seeing so, one grows disenchanted, dispassionate, disgusted by all things. And if one cultivates dispassion enough for all things that have come to be, one fabricates the conditions for the realization of what is outside Time. The key is always to remember that the path has the flavor of dispassion, renunciation, disgust (loss of gusto for, not aversion) for the world. Which you won't find in too many Western Buddhist magazines ;')

Sylvester
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Re: Yoniso Manasikara

Post by Sylvester » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:38 pm

D1W1 wrote:Hello all,

What does yoniso manasikara and ayoniso manasikara mean?

In Ayoniso manasikara Sutta (SN 9.11), it says:
Thoughts of sensuality, thoughts of ill will, thoughts of doing harm
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

But I've also read ayoniso manasikara means believing something false as true, impermanent as permanent, non-self as self, etc..
In short what does yoniso manasikara mean? Thanks all.
Hi D1W1

Actually in SN 9.11, the verse says "ayoniso manasikārā" followed by the part about being chewed by one's thoughts. Manasikāra has been inflected into the ablative manasikārā, which I take here to mean the ablative of cause. As such, you can read "ayoniso manasikārā" to mean "caused by ayoniso manasikāra". So, ayoniso manasikāra is actually distinct from the unskilful thoughts, and is actually their cause.

In any event, you can read this in conjunction with AN 2.123 - 124, on how ayoniso manasikāra works with the respective "signs" as the conditions/paccaya for the arising of passion and hatred respectively.

Sylvester
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Re: Yoniso Manasikara

Post by Sylvester » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:05 pm

spacenick wrote: ...
:goodpost:

SarathW
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Re: Yoniso Manasikara

Post by SarathW » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:05 pm

Sylvester wrote:
spacenick wrote: ...
:goodpost:
:goodpost: yes!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

D1W1
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Re: Yoniso Manasikara

Post by D1W1 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:59 am

spacenick wrote:...............
:goodpost:


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Kumara
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Re: Yoniso Manasikara

Post by Kumara » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:46 am

Dmytro wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:27 pm
Hello,

See: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6006
Thanks, Dmytro. I've added my rendering and explanation there.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

ieee23
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Re: Yoniso Manasikara

Post by ieee23 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:45 am

This is a BPS Wheel booklet about it. Pretty good, explains the concepts well and gives concrete exercises

https://what-buddha-said.net/library/Wheels/wh463.pdf
Whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. - MN 19

rolling_boulder
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Re: Yoniso Manasikara

Post by rolling_boulder » Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:04 pm

this is a subtle point, but rather than pointing to definitions it is better to look into your own experience.

Yoniso manasikara is paying attention in ways that do not produce suffering.

What ways of paying attention produce suffering and what ways do not?
This way you will find out what it really is.
The world is swept away. It does not endure...
The world is without shelter, without protector...
The world is without ownership. One has to pass on, leaving everything behind...
The world is insufficient, insatiable, a slave to craving.

SarathW
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Re: Yoniso Manasikara

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:02 pm

The way I understand it now Yoniso Manasikara is very big basket and it contains many small baskets.
It is relevant to four noble truths and the Noble Eightfold Path.
Manasikara is a universal mental faculty and applies to every consciousness.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Kumara
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Re: Yoniso Manasikara

Post by Kumara » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:34 am

rolling_boulder wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:04 pm
Yoniso manasikara is paying attention in ways that do not produce suffering.
Is there any basis for making this connection?

I mean, "paying attention in ways that do not produce suffering" is great, but how can we know if that's what it means.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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