If there is no self how can we reincarnate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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L.N.
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Re: If there is no self how can we reincarnate

Post by L.N. » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:28 pm

davidbrainerd wrote:Whichever sutta explains the six-sense base in full. I don't remember where it is.
I am not presently familiar with a sutta which discusses the intellect as limited to merely a process aggregating the remaining five senses into one picture, which is why I requested that you kindly direct my attention to such a sutta. Is it this one? Or this? If so, which part? I am not familiar with the teaching that the sixth sense faculty is so delimited as you describe, and I would appreciate reading such. Thank you.
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badscooter
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Re: If there is no self how can we reincarnate

Post by badscooter » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:04 am

cappuccino wrote:Nirvana isn't annihilation… or this would be a suicidal goal.
A suicide for who?
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

davidbrainerd
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Re: If there is no self how can we reincarnate

Post by davidbrainerd » Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:40 am

badscooter wrote:
cappuccino wrote:Nirvana isn't annihilation… or this would be a suicidal goal.
A suicide for who?
Is it

A. the anhihilation of an existing being
B. the anhihilation of a non-existing being

?

spacenick
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Re: If there is no self how can we reincarnate

Post by spacenick » Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:31 am

What is annihilated is the own-made, the fabricated (the sankharamed). If there's abiding in Nibbana (vinnana anidassanam, consciousness that cannot be pinned down), one cannot be said to be annihilated, because there isn't existence in the first place (and even talking of "one" here is merely language - we cannot objectify the unobjectified). At that point the khandas merely cease.

See SN 22.85

It is the thirst (tanha) for renewed existence that will set up the conditions (but it is important to stress that the conditions are own-made, they are not falling from the sky, it is the desire of the self for renewed existence {as a self} [^1]) for the arising of another individualized consciousness (vinnana) in conjunction with name-&-form, according to one's kamma (the 'famous' last thought moment before death + the whole complexity of kamma after that).

Ven. Thanissaro when asked about imminent death:
Q: Suppose you know you’re going to die in three minutes. How do you train
your mind at that point?
A: The first point of advice is: Don’t wait until you’re two or three minutes
from death. Try to practice in advance as much as you can. But if you suddenly
realize that death is imminent, remember that you really have to let go. Of
everything. The Buddha’s advice is that if you’re worried about what you’re
leaving behind, the first order of business is to get rid of all worries. You have to
drop all worries about your family or any unfinished business in this world,
because as the Buddha said, even if you’re worried about these things, at this
point you can’t help them. So, one, don’t worry about things you’re leaving
behind.
Then, two, if you’re concerned about leaving behind human sensual pleasures,
remember that the pleasures of heaven are better than human pleasures. Even
better than Pommard.
There’s one discourse, a sutta, where the Buddha recommends telling a person
on his or her deathbed about the pleasures of each level of heaven, saying that
each one as you go up is better than the lower one, so set your mind on the
higher one rather than the lower one. But then the Buddha recommended telling
the person that even the devas in the higher levels still suffer from a sense of selfidentification.
In other words, there’s a sense of clinging to their idea of who they
are. A greater wellbeing would be to let go of any sense of self-identity entirely.
Now, if you only have two or three minutes, you can skip all of those levels of
heaven and just remind yourself: “Anything that comes up in the mind is not me,
not mine. Let it go, let it go, let it go.” And remember that your awareness will
outlast anything else that comes up: thoughts, pains, visions of this place or that,
this person or that. So stay with that awareness. Then, if you can get away from
those concerns, try to do away with any sense of self around that awareness. If
you can learn how not to identify with any sense of self around that awareness,
then awakening is possible at the moment of death.
From: The Karma of Mindfulness

[^1] Edit to make the matter crystal clear here: existence automatically implies "self", conjunction of consciousness with nama/rupa, some "it-ness" in some place of "at-ness" (See DN15). The "existence as a self" should be shortened to simply "existence", giving: "it is the desire for the self for renewed existence". I think it's important to make that clear, because otherwise it results in having reified & identified-with states of being such as "Bodhi Mind", "The True Mind", "The Original Face"; and all that. It isn't Nibbana. There's still clinging to a named-form (form in these instances being immaterial), and still subjection to rebirth.

Dinsdale
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Re: If there is no self how can we reincarnate

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:12 am

davidbrainerd wrote: A. the anhihilation of an existing being
B. the anhihilation of a non-existing being
Neither.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

binocular
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Re: If there is no self how can we reincarnate

Post by binocular » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:23 am

davidbrainerd wrote:
badscooter wrote:
cappuccino wrote:Nirvana isn't annihilation… or this would be a suicidal goal.
A suicide for who?
Is it

A. the anhihilation of an existing being
B. the anhihilation of a non-existing being

?
C. The annihilation of greed, anger, and delusion.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

justindesilva
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Re: If there is no self how can we reincarnate

Post by justindesilva » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:11 pm

As buddhists we can form an insight in to our flowing through SAMSARA. Our consciousness is what we are mainly as beings conditioned by paticca samuppada in this stage of life. But we had been flowing like a river or as electricity in a main line.
Our status of the flow of a similar life energy changes from periods which differ in time. This change of the status of life with a so called death is termed a rebirth.
If one can cut a slice in a river then we can identify a similar self.
The change of status of life is decided by the accumulated karma and hence the term of 're birth and soul are misinterpretations of the flow of our life energy which period of flow is called SAMSARA. And the end of this flow of energy is Nirvana.

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cappuccino
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Re: If there is no self how can we reincarnate

Post by cappuccino » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:16 pm

badscooter wrote:
cappuccino wrote:Nirvana isn't annihilation… or this would be a suicidal goal.
A suicide for who?
(I'm not seeking annihilation.)

justindesilva
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Re: If there is no self how can we reincarnate

Post by justindesilva » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:48 am

If I may note that nirvana is a state of the energy which ceases the 're becoming and not annihilation.
With a mind of aloba adosa and void of greed 're the process of 're becoming stops but not annihilated.

form
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Re: If there is no self how can we reincarnate

Post by form » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:16 am

practitioner wrote:
Craving to get rid of craving? interesting thought!
There is no craving to get rid of craving.

There is insight meditation to observe the emergence of craving and not abiding to the craving.
Pantajali's yoga Sutra advice a thought cannot be perceived by a thought. There will be no ending.

SarathW
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Re: If there is no self how can we reincarnate

Post by SarathW » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:50 am

Pantajali's yoga Sutra advice a thought cannot be perceived by a thought.
Earlier though can be perceived by the latter thought.
With practice thought arise, sustained and perish with the knowledge.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

form
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Re: If there is no self how can we reincarnate

Post by form » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:56 am

SarathW wrote:
Pantajali's yoga Sutra advice a thought cannot be perceived by a thought.
Earlier though can be perceived by the latter thought.
With practice thought arise, sustained and perish with the knowledge.
I suspect he meant by noting which is the same as mindfulness.

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