Buddhism and Career

[Disciple]

Is it possible to be a proper Buddhist and also be passionate about one's career? If the result of Buddhist practice is reduced or no desire then how is one able to maintain passion in one's daily career? Would it then be nothing but a chore having to get up every morning to go to work when there is no passion anymore?

[davidbrainerd]

Is your goal nibbana in one shot, or something else? Stream entry, rebirth in one of the heavens...we tend to forget in the West that Buddhist is multifaceted. You don't have to answer. The question is rhetorical. I'm just pointing out that it seems if the goal is other than nibbana in one shot then complete relinquishment of all desire is overkill.

[chownah]

The buddha gave teachings about right livelihood. If the buddha thought that having passion for your career was a particularly bad thing (as opposed to it just being one of the many passions of lay life) I think he would have included this in those teachings....but he didn't.
chownah

[Disciple]

The buddha gave teachings about right livelihood. If the buddha thought that having passion for your career was a particularly bad thing (as opposed to it just being one of the many passions of lay life) I think he would have included this in those teachings....but he didn't.
chownah

Whole point of the teachings are to eliminate all passions/desires period. No?

[moggy]

Whole point of the teachings are to eliminate all passions/desires period. No?

Sure, but remember that the Buddha gave different advice to laypeople. If you read the suttas, most of what you read is advice for monks.

See what the Buddha tells the householder Anāthapiṇḍika in AN 5.41. There is still spiritual potential in worldly concerns like careers. After all, who is going to provide alms if not the householders?

The image of the Wheel-Turning Monarch is a celebration of this duty.

[Tex]

The buddha gave teachings about right livelihood. If the buddha thought that having passion for your career was a particularly bad thing (as opposed to it just being one of the many passions of lay life) I think he would have included this in those teachings....but he didn't.
chownah

Whole point of the teachings are to eliminate all passions/desires period. No?

Eliminating desire isn't going to happen overnight for most of us. In the meantime, we've got to pay the bills.

As Chownah noted, the Buddha did not teach that livelihood is something to be abandoned entirely and immediately, like alcohol or lying. He did teach us to be skillful about which livelihoods we pursue.

It's a gradual training for most of us, and we all move at our own pace, and if we're not ready to give up all mundane things yet, we can use them as opportunities to practice. I try to be harmless in my career, to practice Right Speech with my clients, to be ethical beyond reproach, etc. I can honestly say that so far my career has helped my practice, not hindered it.

[SarathW]

All Buddhist whether you are a lay person or an Arahant you are expected only to follow the Noble Eightfold Path.
NEP is practiced by different level based on your capacity and effort.
It is gradual training.
Most of the Suttas are aim at monks or serious practitioners not for lay people.

[akashdhamma]

Hello,

As a lay person, you should look at the Maha Mangala Sutta as a robust outline for the most productive way to live as a householder.

These are in ascending order, the greatest kamma that can be done as a householder to ensure happiness and well being.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/ethics_m.htm

To have much learning, to be skillful in handicraft,[8]
well-trained in discipline, [9] and to be of good speech [10] — this
is the greatest blessing.

To have much learning, to be skilled in handicraft, well-trained in discipline : These refer to being well mastered in whatever field of work that you've chosen to participate in. As long as it does not involve trade of weapons, intoxicants, poison, or slaughter of animals, and is perfectly legal - then it is virtuous to do your work earnestly putting in all your effort. One good intent is to maximize your potential by working selflessly with dhamma ideals and inspiring others to do the same.

In this way, you can also have more wealth to facilitate good deeds, support the causes you believe in, support the sangha, etc. The main danger to watch out for is to not let your wealth be a means of strengthening your ego, and not pursue it for acquiring a more flamboyant lifestyle as these could lead to downfall.

[SarathW]

Gradual Training, Gradual Practice, Gradual Progress by Bro. Billy Tan

My comment: A must watch. I will assure you that you will pick up at least one thing new.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbsTOAlw2II

[Janalanda]

If the result of Buddhist practice is reduced or no desire then how is one able to maintain passion in one's daily career?

Whole point of the teachings are to eliminate all passions/desires period. No?

No, the point of the buddhist path is becoming an arahant. And you can't do that without desire. According to Buddha, even a non-returner needs desire in order to become an arahant. We should be careful not to fall into nihilist, ascetic views about how that is achieved and drop the raft before becoming an arahant. Here is a sutta dealing with this question:

"If that's so, Master Ananda, then it's an endless path, and not one with an end, for it's impossible that one could abandon desire by means of desire."

"In that case, brahman, let me question you on this matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think: Didn't you first have desire, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular desire allayed?"

"Yes, sir."

"Didn't you first have persistence, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular persistence allayed?"

"Yes, sir."

"Didn't you first have the intent, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular intent allayed?"

"Yes, sir."

"Didn't you first have [an act of] discrimination, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular act of discrimination allayed?"

"Yes, sir."

"So it is with an arahant whose mental effluents are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis. Whatever desire he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular desire is allayed. Whatever persistence he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular persistence is allayed. Whatever intent he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular intent is allayed. Whatever discrimination he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular discrimination is allayed. So what do you think, brahman? Is this an endless path, or one with an end?"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[katavedi]

Hello disciple,

AN 8.54 is a relevant sutta that echoes what many here have already advised. The sutta starts with a householder asking the Buddha to teach Dhamma to those who are enmeshed in worldly lives of sensual pleasure:

There Dighajanu the Koliyan went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, “We are lay people enjoying sensuality; living crowded with spouses & children; using Kasi fabrics & sandalwood; wearing garlands, scents, & creams; handling gold & silver. May the Blessed One teach the Dhamma for those like us, for our happiness & well-being in this life, for our happiness & well-being in lives to come.”

In the first part of the sutta, the Buddha teaches him how to establish a good householder life. In the second part of the sutta, he teaches him how to establish a good spiritual life too.

*Interesting note: in the first part, the reference is to "a lay person", while in the second part, the reference is to "a noble disciple".

I don't think there is any implication in the sutta that the lifestyle in the first half of the sutta needs to be abandoned in order to develop the second half. I read it as implying that the second half is built upon the stability of the lifestyle depicted in the first half.

More to the point of your question, though, the word "passion" often implies attachment. If you are attached to your career, then when it changes or vanishes (as it inevitably must), you'll suffer (in proportion to the amount of attachment to it that you have). It seems to me that the task here is to develop skill in one's career, to take satisfaction in one's efforts and the fruits that they bring, yet to understand that this situation (the career) is only there when certain conditions are in place. When those conditions change, that situation will vanish. Keeping impermanence and conditionality in mind can help to loosen attachment and develop equanimity. And that freedom from attachment/agitation often results in a better worker.

Would it then be nothing but a chore having to get up every morning to go to work when there is no passion anymore?

Something is only a chore when there's resistance to it, which implies craving/clinging. When craving is abandoned, there is a greater sense of freedom and joy in whatever one does. I'd bet there are many people here, like me, who have given their two weeks' notice at a job, only to find that those last two weeks were actually quite enjoyable. It's because we had already abandoned the job in our hearts, and so, without any more attachment to the job or to praise and blame, we felt more freedom in the work, a sense of lightheartedness and joy.

Or maybe that was just me....

Kind wishes,
katavedi

[binocular]

Is it possible to be a proper Buddhist and also be passionate about one's career? If the result of Buddhist practice is reduced or no desire then how is one able to maintain passion in one's daily career? Would it then be nothing but a chore having to get up every morning to go to work when there is no passion anymore?

I think the question is (and you don't need to answer, I'm asking for the purpose of discussion), whether a lay person has already come to the point where they have no passion for their career and worldly life anymore. For such a person, all that Buddhist advice for laypeople can sometimes be like a nightmare, like a recipe for living a life of quiet desperation.

But how has one arrived at this dispassion for worldly things, on what is it based? Is it based on aversion?

"There is the case where right view is supported by virtue, supported by learning, supported by discussion, supported by tranquillity, supported by insight.
"When supported by these five factors, right view has awareness-release as its fruit, awareness-release as its reward; it has discernment-release as its fruit, discernment-release as its reward."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Dispassion based on aversion can masquerade as right view, but isn't right view. If a view is not supported by those five factors, then it's not right view and doesn't have the power to release.

There are two types of right view (worldly and noble), but one type of wrong view:

And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


While many people have no passion for worldly life and career (or envision not having such passion), this doesn't automatically mean they are spiritually advanced "above the crowd." It could simply mean they are ungrateful, lack virtue, are lazy and narrow-minded.


Edited for spelling.

[justindesilva]

Lord Buddha not only preached the monks but he was vigilant about his lay disciples too.
Siglovada sutra exposes such an instant when he shows sigalaka the ill effects arising from acts of a professional by
1.destruction of life 2. Stealing 3. Sexual misconduct and adultery 4. Anger 5. Ignorance 6. Fear
Lord budda advised that by overlooking dharma through the above vices along with using inyocicsntd and bad company , gambling, and idleness one will lose the reputation of a person engaged in a career along with loss of wealth.
The noble eight fold path as suggested by Sarath W is the ideal path for any professional.

[Disciple]

Hello disciple,

AN 8.54 is a relevant sutta that echoes what many here have already advised. The sutta starts with a householder asking the Buddha to teach Dhamma to those who are enmeshed in worldly lives of sensual pleasure:

There Dighajanu the Koliyan went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, “We are lay people enjoying sensuality; living crowded with spouses & children; using Kasi fabrics & sandalwood; wearing garlands, scents, & creams; handling gold & silver. May the Blessed One teach the Dhamma for those like us, for our happiness & well-being in this life, for our happiness & well-being in lives to come.”

In the first part of the sutta, the Buddha teaches him how to establish a good householder life. In the second part of the sutta, he teaches him how to establish a good spiritual life too.

*Interesting note: in the first part, the reference is to "a lay person", while in the second part, the reference is to "a noble disciple".

I don't think there is any implication in the sutta that the lifestyle in the first half of the sutta needs to be abandoned in order to develop the second half. I read it as implying that the second half is built upon the stability of the lifestyle depicted in the first half.

More to the point of your question, though, the word "passion" often implies attachment. If you are attached to your career, then when it changes or vanishes (as it inevitably must), you'll suffer (in proportion to the amount of attachment to it that you have). It seems to me that the task here is to develop skill in one's career, to take satisfaction in one's efforts and the fruits that they bring, yet to understand that this situation (the career) is only there when certain conditions are in place. When those conditions change, that situation will vanish. Keeping impermanence and conditionality in mind can help to loosen attachment and develop equanimity. And that freedom from attachment/agitation often results in a better worker.

Would it then be nothing but a chore having to get up every morning to go to work when there is no passion anymore?

Something is only a chore when there's resistance to it, which implies craving/clinging. When craving is abandoned, there is a greater sense of freedom and joy in whatever one does. I'd bet there are many people here, like me, who have given their two weeks' notice at a job, only to find that those last two weeks were actually quite enjoyable. It's because we had already abandoned the job in our hearts, and so, without any more attachment to the job or to praise and blame, we felt more freedom in the work, a sense of lightheartedness and joy.

Or maybe that was just me....

Kind wishes,
katavedi

Excellent reply. Thanks.

Thanks for other replies too.

[Disciple]

Hello disciple,

AN 8.54 is a relevant sutta that echoes what many here have already advised. The sutta starts with a householder asking the Buddha to teach Dhamma to those who are enmeshed in worldly lives of sensual pleasure:

There Dighajanu the Koliyan went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, “We are lay people enjoying sensuality; living crowded with spouses & children; using Kasi fabrics & sandalwood; wearing garlands, scents, & creams; handling gold & silver. May the Blessed One teach the Dhamma for those like us, for our happiness & well-being in this life, for our happiness & well-being in lives to come.”

In the first part of the sutta, the Buddha teaches him how to establish a good householder life. In the second part of the sutta, he teaches him how to establish a good spiritual life too.

*Interesting note: in the first part, the reference is to "a lay person", while in the second part, the reference is to "a noble disciple".

I don't think there is any implication in the sutta that the lifestyle in the first half of the sutta needs to be abandoned in order to develop the second half. I read it as implying that the second half is built upon the stability of the lifestyle depicted in the first half.

More to the point of your question, though, the word "passion" often implies attachment. If you are attached to your career, then when it changes or vanishes (as it inevitably must), you'll suffer (in proportion to the amount of attachment to it that you have). It seems to me that the task here is to develop skill in one's career, to take satisfaction in one's efforts and the fruits that they bring, yet to understand that this situation (the career) is only there when certain conditions are in place. When those conditions change, that situation will vanish. Keeping impermanence and conditionality in mind can help to loosen attachment and develop equanimity. And that freedom from attachment/agitation often results in a better worker.

Would it then be nothing but a chore having to get up every morning to go to work when there is no passion anymore?

Something is only a chore when there's resistance to it, which implies craving/clinging. When craving is abandoned, there is a greater sense of freedom and joy in whatever one does. I'd bet there are many people here, like me, who have given their two weeks' notice at a job, only to find that those last two weeks were actually quite enjoyable. It's because we had already abandoned the job in our hearts, and so, without any more attachment to the job or to praise and blame, we felt more freedom in the work, a sense of lightheartedness and joy.

Or maybe that was just me....

Kind wishes,
katavedi

Excellent reply. Thanks.

Thanks for other replies too.