Unconditioned

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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acinteyyo
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by acinteyyo » Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:00 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:Given that the unconditioned is an epithet for Nibbana, what are the practical implications of AN 3.47? No arising is seen of what, exactly?

"Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the conditioned. What three? An arising is seen, a vanishing is seen, and its alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the conditioned.

Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the unconditioned. What three? No arising is seen, no vanishing is seen, and no alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the unconditioned.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.47
I don't know wether or not somebody said something like I'm going to say but I just have some time now to respond to the OP. Though it's not enough to read the whole thread, so I hope it'll be okay anyways.

Nibbana is a term that describes the absence of greed, hatred and delusion. It cannot be said that there is an arising of absence or a vanishing and so on of absence of something. Just to write this already shows the oddness of putting it that way. Therefore the characteristics of the absence of greed, hatred and delusion is that there is no arising, no vanishing nor any alteration to be seen while the absence persists.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:12 pm

acinteyyo wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:Given that the unconditioned is an epithet for Nibbana, what are the practical implications of AN 3.47? No arising is seen of what, exactly?

"Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the conditioned. What three? An arising is seen, a vanishing is seen, and its alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the conditioned.

Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the unconditioned. What three? No arising is seen, no vanishing is seen, and no alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the unconditioned.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.47
I don't know wether or not somebody said something like I'm going to say but I just have some time now to respond to the OP. Though it's not enough to read the whole thread, so I hope it'll be okay anyways.

Nibbana is a term that describes the absence of greed, hatred and delusion. It cannot be said that there is an arising of absence or a vanishing and so on of absence of something. Just to write this already shows the oddness of putting it that way. Therefore the characteristics of the absence of greed, hatred and delusion is that there is no arising, no vanishing nor any alteration to be seen while the absence persists.

best wishes, acinteyyo
So it's craving, aversion and delusion which cease to arise?

What you think of Katavedi's response on the first page of the thread:
"...meaning that the mind is no longer constructing objects (and, as a result, a subject) out of experience. Thus there is no arising of "things", either "out there" (as objects that define a subject) or "in here" (as a subject that needs objects for its existence)....This is the case with the meditative experience of nibbana, the still point, in which all the constructive activities of the mind have ceased."
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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acinteyyo
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by acinteyyo » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:22 pm

Spiny Norman wrote: So it's craving, aversion and delusion which cease to arise?
More accurately I would say it's the extinguishment of the fires of greed (raga), hatred (dosa) and delusion (moha).
Spiny Norman wrote:What you think of Katavedi's response on the first page of the thread:
"...meaning that the mind is no longer constructing objects (and, as a result, a subject) out of experience. Thus there is no arising of "things", either "out there" (as objects that define a subject) or "in here" (as a subject that needs objects for its existence)....This is the case with the meditative experience of nibbana, the still point, in which all the constructive activities of the mind have ceased."
I tend to agree that there is no more I-making, mine-making etc. which means no more fabricating. However, I would not limit nibbana to be a meditative experience only.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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katavedi
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by katavedi » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:41 pm

Hello Spiny and acinteyyo,
acinteyyo wrote:I tend to agree that there is no more I-making, mine-making etc. which means no more fabricating. However, I would not limit nibbana to be a meditative experience only.
...which is why the rest of my post that Spiny quoted reads:
"But I think this sutta could also be referring to the everyday mind of the arahant, who is no longer constructing a subject to whom experience is happening. And with no subject, there can no longer be objects -- just as with no objects, there can be no subject. The two need each other to exist, as the sheaves of reeds simile attests (SN 12.67). It's not that the arahant can't use or recognize what we conventionally call "objects", but s/he is not "thingifying" them in a way that creates an "experiencer".

So, to me, this sutta says that when there is asankhata, there is no arising of "things", either subject or objects, presumably because one has seen that it's the constructive activities of the mind (the sankharas) that create the "things" (particularly the illusion of self)."
I also agree with acinteyyo's post and don't see any contradiction with what I wrote. The cessation of the creating of a subject and object is the cessation of greed, hatred, and delusion. And with the cessation of greed, hatred, and delusion, there can be no further constructing of subject and objects.

Kind wishes,
katavedi
“But, Gotamī, when you know of certain things: ‘These things lead to dispassion, not to passion; to detachment, not to attachment; to diminution, not to accumulation; to having few wishes, not to having many wishes; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to socializing; to the arousing of energy, not to indolence; to simple living, not to luxurious living’ – of such things you can be certain: ‘This is the Dhamma; this is the Discipline; this is the Master’s Teaching.’”

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acinteyyo
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by acinteyyo » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:45 pm

:anjali:
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Unexist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:08 pm

Buddha did not said, I seen the house builder. Exact translation is " oh house builder you have been seen". Question remain who saw it? The answer is the eightfold path, the tathagata.

Buddha was referring here to Advaita Vedanta's, Upanishad's so called eternal principle" Brahman".
After purity there arises knowledge, wisdom or ultimate path of knowledge and the house builder home is on fire with lightening of wisdom.

This house builder then broke apart with it's parts fallen clearly visible only to the eye of wisdom. Then in that burnt ashesh, there lies a principle which is like head taken out from body fallen apart. But delusionly Vedanta, Veda and Upanishad called it eternal as it is the last part of knowledge and whatever is last is they call it real.

Buddha said what is Burt by fire only there remain ash and we can't call the ashesh eternal. The effect they see is delusionly thinking as ultimate cause. Hence Buddha said anatta, anitya (not eternal self, imparmanent).
This is the only difference the Buddha brought out the revolution. And his only goal is to how to burn that principle which lies in myriads of birth and death. He conclude the fire which burnt is the path or the water who quenched the thirst for Nirvana is the path. He named it as truth, the path of purity and conduct.

---++++---+---++

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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:10 am

Unexist wrote:Buddha did not said, I seen the house builder. Exact translation is " oh house builder you have been seen". Question remain who saw it? The answer is the eightfold path, the tathagata.
:roll:

In narrative Pali, acts of seeing, hearing, sensing, suspecting, etc., are routinely indicated with passive rather than active constructions. No need to go reading Hindu philosophy into it.

Diṭṭhosi, pārājikaṃ dhammaṃ ajjhāpannosi, assamaṇosi, asakyaputtiyosi.

I have seen that you have committed an offence entailing defeat. You are no longer an ascetic, not a son of the Sakyan.”

A form-equivalent rendering would be:

You are-seen; you are one-who-has-transgressed a defeating rule; you are a non-ascetic; you are a non-son-of-the-Sakyan.”

Uṭṭhehi, āvuso, diṭṭhosi bhagavatā; natthi te bhikkhūhi saddhiṃ saṃvāso ti.

“Stand up, friend. The Blessed One has seen you. For you there is no communion with the bhikkhus.”

or:

“Stand up, friend. You have been seen by the Blessed One ...”
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

Unexist
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Unexist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:36 am

Ditthosi bhagava! The tathagata seen you! The tathagata is synonym for not Gautama nor to Buddha but who is the master who enlighten man out of his ignorance. That's why it is called bhagava, means who shake off evil, the tathagata, the dhamma, the eightfold path. Buddhist called it tathagata, Jesus call it Father, Saint Kabir called it Raam-Naam , Tukaram call it Vitthal, Mira called it her beloved.

Buddha never created any religion. Whether you call it by many names, what's the matter? The walking on the path and faith or love is most essential thing.

Advaita Vedanta and Upanishad, Veda. They have created the seen principle as eternal God. Sheer illusion!
The long post is not meant for propagation of any religion but truth!

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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:53 am

Unexist wrote:The long post is not meant for propagation of any religion but truth...
... as it is conceived in the more flabby-minded forms of Hindu perennialism.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

Unexist
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Unexist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:13 pm

Whatever you said not accepted or rejected. These are mere words.
In previous statements, vedanta, Veda and Upanishad are form of illusion as said.
So why question for Hinduism? I belong to no religion!

Hope you awaken in this very life. With love!

Unexist
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Unexist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:33 pm

One more thing sir! What you deleted some lines from the earlier passage is true in every word of it. One fear to post these unharmful message means fearing to truth.

Sorry sir! I came to wrong place!

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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:43 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Unexist wrote:Buddha did not said, I seen the house builder. Exact translation is " oh house builder you have been seen". Question remain who saw it? The answer is the eightfold path, the tathagata.
:roll:

In narrative Pali, acts of seeing, hearing, sensing, suspecting, etc., are routinely indicated with passive rather than active constructions. No need to go reading Hindu philosophy into it.

Diṭṭhosi, pārājikaṃ dhammaṃ ajjhāpannosi, assamaṇosi, asakyaputtiyosi.

I have seen that you have committed an offence entailing defeat. You are no longer an ascetic, not a son of the Sakyan.”

A form-equivalent rendering would be:

You are-seen; you are one-who-has-transgressed a defeating rule; you are a non-ascetic; you are a non-son-of-the-Sakyan.”

Uṭṭhehi, āvuso, diṭṭhosi bhagavatā; natthi te bhikkhūhi saddhiṃ saṃvāso ti.

“Stand up, friend. The Blessed One has seen you. For you there is no communion with the bhikkhus.”

or:

“Stand up, friend. You have been seen by the Blessed One ...”
I seem to have gone off the rails trying to understand what you are talking about in the above post. Could you be so kind as to translate this into plain English and explain why you are refuting what Unexist has said? Thank you.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:36 pm

Saengnapha wrote:Could you be so kind as to translate this into plain English and explain why you are refuting what Unexist has said?
The poster imagines that there is some hidden significance in the Buddha's choosing to express himself in the passive voice rather than the active voice, and that that s/he has discovered this hidden significance and now deigns to reveal it to us.

In my response I pointed out that there are no grounds for supposing this to be the case. It's simply that certain Pali verbs are more commonly (or just as commonly) used in the passive than in the active voice. To illustrate this I gave a couple of examples, taken from quite pedestrian narratives in the Vinaya Piṭaka in which there isn't even the tiniest likelihood of a hidden meaning.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

chownah
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by chownah » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:49 pm


Saengnapha
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:28 pm

I've never run into these terms before. Thanks.

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