Unconditioned

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ben
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Ben » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:43 am

cappuccino wrote:I think we can conclude Nirvana is a state, an aferlife as well.

All we call self is inconstant.
Please provide textual support for your assertion that "Nirvana" is an afterlife.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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cappuccino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:46 am

“There is that sphere where there is no earth, no water, no fire nor wind; no sphere of infinity of space, of infinity of consciousness, of nothingness or even of neither-perception-nor non-perception; there, there is neither this world nor the other world, neither moon nor sun; this sphere I call neither a coming nor a going nor a staying still, neither a dying nor a reappearance; it has no basis, no evolution and no support: this, just this,
is the end of dukkha.”
~ Ud 8.1
Buddha has said, "As even a little excrement is of evil smell, I do not praise even the shortest spell of existence, be it no longer than a snap of the fingers."

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cappuccino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:48 am

neither this world nor the other world

Nibbāna Sutta: Parinibbana
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
Buddha has said, "As even a little excrement is of evil smell, I do not praise even the shortest spell of existence, be it no longer than a snap of the fingers."

davidbrainerd
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by davidbrainerd » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:01 am

Is it not correct to understand the following paragraph in MN 22 as indicating Nirvana is not annihilation?
MN 22 wrote:"Speaking in this way, teaching in this way, I have been erroneously, vainly, falsely, unfactually misrepresented by some brahmans and contemplatives [who say], 'Gotama the contemplative is one who misleads. He declares the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being.' But as I am not that, as I do not say that, so I have been erroneously, vainly, falsely, unfactually misrepresented by those venerable brahmans and contemplatives [who say], 'Gotama the contemplative is one who misleads. He declares the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being.'
Last edited by davidbrainerd on Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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cappuccino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:02 am

Nirvana is not annihilation. It's selflessness.
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Buddha has said, "As even a little excrement is of evil smell, I do not praise even the shortest spell of existence, be it no longer than a snap of the fingers."

pegembara
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by pegembara » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:03 am

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he discerns that it is inconstant, not grasped at, not relished. Sensing a feeling of pain... Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he discerns that it is inconstant, not grasped at, not relished. Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain... Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. When sensing a feeling limited to the body, he discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, he discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' He discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Doesn't sound much like an afterlife does it? Nothing gets annihilated since nothing belongs to self.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Ben
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Ben » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:13 am

cappuccino wrote:Nirvana is not annihilation. It's selflessness.
Please attribute authorship when quoting, as per the TOS.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Ben
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Ben » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:14 am

cappuccino wrote:“There is that sphere where there is no earth, no water, no fire nor wind; no sphere of infinity of space, of infinity of consciousness, of nothingness or even of neither-perception-nor non-perception; there, there is neither this world nor the other world, neither moon nor sun; this sphere I call neither a coming nor a going nor a staying still, neither a dying nor a reappearance; it has no basis, no evolution and no support: this, just this,
is the end of dukkha.”
~ Ud 8.1
None of what you have provided supports the notion that "Nirvana" is an afterlife.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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tiltbillings
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:32 am

davidbrainerd wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:For the "true self" to experience phenomenal existence, it must be able to have experience, meaning that it much be able see, hear, touch, taste, smell, have thoughts, which then means it must be able to feel, and then must be able recognize what is experienced based upon repeated experience, and it must be able to develop volitional responses to what it experiences, and, of course, underlying all of this is awareness. Without all this, nothing.
Meaning when its linked to the aggregates it experiences what the aggregates experienced because of its clinging to the viññāṇa aggregate.
And you really do not see the problem here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:33 am

davidbrainerd wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:For the "true self" to experience phenomenal existence, it must be able to have experience, meaning that it much be able see, hear, touch, taste, smell, have thoughts, which then means it must be able to feel, and then must be able recognize what is experienced based upon repeated experience, and it must be able to develop volitional responses to what it experiences, and, of course, underlying all of this is awareness. Without all this, nothing.
Meaning when its linked to the aggregates it experiences what the aggregates experienced because of its clinging to the viññāṇa aggregate.
And you really do not see the problem here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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cappuccino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:43 am

Ben wrote:None of what you have provided supports the notion that "Nirvana" is an afterlife.
Parinibbana!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parinirvana
Buddha has said, "As even a little excrement is of evil smell, I do not praise even the shortest spell of existence, be it no longer than a snap of the fingers."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:47 am

cappuccino wrote:
Ben wrote:None of what you have provided supports the notion that "Nirvana" is an afterlife.
Parinibbana!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parinirvana
So, you are saying that the Buddha is still around, hanging out in parinibbana, is that it?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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cappuccino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:51 am

I don't think Buddha was annihilated.
Buddha has said, "As even a little excrement is of evil smell, I do not praise even the shortest spell of existence, be it no longer than a snap of the fingers."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:59 am

cappuccino wrote:I don't think Buddha was annihilated.
If he not annihilated, the is eternally persisting, is that what you are saying?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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cappuccino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:04 am

It is the Everlasting
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44
Buddha has said, "As even a little excrement is of evil smell, I do not praise even the shortest spell of existence, be it no longer than a snap of the fingers."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:22 am

cappuccino wrote:It is the Everlasting
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44
Interesting. That the Buddha said about himself:

    • Since a tathagata, even when actually present, is incomprehensible, it is inept to say of him – of the Uttermost Person, the Supernal Person, the Attainer of the Supernal – that after death the tathagata is, or is not, or both is and is not, or neither is nor is not SN III 118-9
Looks like you are stating that the Buddha somehow or other is, but he says that is inappropriate. Also, this goes directly to davidbrainerd's "true self" idea.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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cappuccino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:29 am

I didn't say he is. Are you saying he isn't?
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Buddha has said, "As even a little excrement is of evil smell, I do not praise even the shortest spell of existence, be it no longer than a snap of the fingers."

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The Thinker
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by The Thinker » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:29 am

This is my own view: Whatever Nibbana is, it was poorly explained. If one see life as suffering (a little too strong a word perhaps or not?), which is the conclusion is it not? then any state that stops, ceases those emotions etc can be classified as Nibbana, I like to think(but obviously my vanity))Nibbana as the moment when we have watched our painful thoughts and they have evaporated ,they are let go of, I like to look at death in the same way but I do not yearn for it, I am unsure or I do not know, but I can reflect that death could possibly be just that = nothing = what I remember before birth? this may not be a truth? but this is what the buddha points towards ,the ceasing etc(or maybe not?)


The path is what the Buddha expressed most interest in(this here and now), the four truths the way to peace and easing of mental strife.

I may seem nihilistic but there is, purpose in this life, the purpose is to realise there is no purpose, but to give it purpose, and bring peace to all while we manage to exist. :namaste:
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth

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tiltbillings
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:48 am

cappuccino wrote:I didn't say he is. Are you saying he isn't?
You certainly seemed to imply that he "is," especially since you claimed he is not annihilated. As to what I am saying, it is what the text says. Also, keep in mind that SN 43.1-44 does not support your contention of nibbana being some sort place or existence, and if you want to argue that it does, you will need to offer more than just a couple of words.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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cappuccino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:07 am

The text doesn't say he isn't. And I didn't say he is.
Buddha has said, "As even a little excrement is of evil smell, I do not praise even the shortest spell of existence, be it no longer than a snap of the fingers."

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