Important! Get the real meaning!

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Shuun
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Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by Shuun » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:35 pm

After many struggles in studying the Dhamma, i have studied many traditions, many divisions of those traditions and while it has been useful, what good has come out of it has come out as result of extensive array of unpleasantness and confusion.

Why?

THE SUTTA TRANSLATIONS AND PALI DICTIONARIES ARE FAULTY! THEY ARE NOT CONVEYING THE REAL MEANING AT THIS POINT! MOST OF THE SUTTA TRANSLATIONS USE FAULTY DICTIONARY AND WRONG UNDERSTANDING OF THE PALI AS THEIR GROUND!

This is of UTTERMOST IMPORTANCE!

The meaning is not conveyed! Even such paramount things as 'mind' are translated / conveyed incorrectly! Even such things as samadhi! Beware my friends! Bring this to your attention! The meaning is LOST IN TRANSLATION and the only way to succeed nowadays is basically on trial and error basis and going through much confusion, especially if you think that the meaning is preserved or even if you think that the words are translated correctly! THEY ARE NOT! WAKE UP MY FRIENDS!

chownah
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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by chownah » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:23 pm

Shuun,
Oh my! O my! and where can I go to get the real meaning?
chownah

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samseva
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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by samseva » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:44 pm

While anything translated does lose some meaning, I think your claim is a little exaggerated/over-alarming. It may be to the extent of missing an occasional subtle or precise explanation, but not to the point of causing near-complete confusion.

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DC2R
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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by DC2R » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:26 pm

I agree with samseva—some meaning may be lost in translation, but the suttas certainly point in the right direction.

"The Master may tell you to look at the Dhamma in the books, but if you think that this is where the Dhamma really is, you’ll never see it. Having looked at the books you must reflect on those teachings inwardly. Then you can understand the Dhamma. Where does the real Dhamma exist? It exists right here in this body and mind of ours."

—Ajahn Chah
May the blessings of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha always be firmly established in your hearts.

http://txti.es/theravada

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DNS
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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by DNS » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:11 pm

chownah wrote:Shuun,
Oh my! O my! and where can I go to get the real meaning?
chownah
24.6959° N, 84.9911° E

davidbrainerd
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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by davidbrainerd » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:02 pm

I think your claim is pretty meaningless without specific examples.

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Shuun
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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by Shuun » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:42 pm

samseva wrote:While anything translated does lose some meaning, I think your claim is a little exaggerated/over-alarming. It may be to the extent of missing an occasional subtle or precise explanation, but not to the point of causing near-complete confusion.
It isn't. The "paticcasamuppada" aka "dependent origination" is translated & interpreted incorrectly, if you understand the gravity of that. The individual links/points are translated incorrectly. Not only that, but much of the emphasis towards tranquility and the essence of ''right kind'' of meditation/practice is lost. No one is getting "right view", without "right view", there is no right anything following and meditation/practice itself is dependent on right view.

If it were not so, there would not be no shortage of Arhats in this world [there is even a sutta about this] and we know that from the millions of "practitioners" of this what we call Dhamma are little to none Arhat teacher arising. Thousands upon thousands of practitioners, yet pretty much no one is getting it! How so if everything is so fine and dandy? ITS NOT FINE AT ALL MY FRIENDS, WE MUST TAKE PROPER ACTION AND ARRIVE AT PROPER TRANSLATION/INTERPRETATION! We should invite people who know anything about Pali and people who know languages similar to Pali and compile list of propositions and insight of the potential proper use of each word in paticcasamuppada related sutta, because current translation and interpretation (craving/ clinging / .. , etc) is just not correct! It can not be correct, if you just investigate it proper!
> Yo paticcasamuppadam passati, so Dhammam passati. Yo Dhammam passati, so paticcasamuppadam passati. One who sees paticcasamuppada sees the Dhamma. One who sees the Dhamma sees paticcasamuppada..
... and the other way around. No understanding of paticcasamuppada = no arhat, no right kind of practice, no right kind of meditation and liberation.


You can not derive the subtle meaning in paticcasamuppada with its existing translation, there is no true Dhamma to be conveyed in it, because the subtle, liberating meaning IS LOST IN TRANSLATION.

I can go on about this to a certain extent, by providing you evidence in reason about various suttas and their relation to this paticcasamuppada and how the current translation is destroying the subtle meaning and pretty much all kinds of beneficial meaning in it.

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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by Nicolas » Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:42 pm

Shuun wrote:I can go on about this to a certain extent, by providing you evidence in reason about various suttas and their relation to this paticcasamuppada and how the current translation is destroying the subtle meaning and pretty much all kinds of beneficial meaning in it.
Please do.

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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by Lonely upasaka » Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:50 pm

If you have read and studied the Pali canon for a long time you would not be writing like this. Because you could easily identify the core teachings such as Four Noble Truths, anicca, dukkha, anatta, dependent origination.
Impermanent are all formations;
Their nature is to arise and vanish.
Having arisen, they cease:
Their appeasement is blissful.

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Shuun
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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by Shuun » Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:13 pm

I think we can start with that phassa, translated as 'contact' does not convey full meaning

How do you, friends, interpret meaning of phassa in relation to so called ''dependent arising'' paticcasamuppada?

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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by davidbrainerd » Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:35 pm

Shuun wrote:I think we can start with that phassa, translated as 'contact' does not convey full meaning

How do you, friends, interpret meaning of phassa in relation to so called ''dependent arising'' paticcasamuppada?
Shouldn't someone claiming certain words are mistranslated say what they believe the correct translation would be?

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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by Goofaholix » Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:17 pm

davidbrainerd wrote:Shouldn't someone claiming certain words are mistranslated say what they believe the correct translation would be?
Yes, seems like this thread is just slogans with little or no evidence.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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samseva
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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by samseva » Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:44 am

Shuun wrote:After many struggles in studying the Dhamma, i have studied many traditions, many divisions of those traditions and while it has been useful, what good has come out of it has come out as result of extensive array of unpleasantness and confusion.

Why?

THE SUTTA TRANSLATIONS AND PALI DICTIONARIES ARE FAULTY! THEY ARE NOT CONVEYING THE REAL MEANING AT THIS POINT! MOST OF THE SUTTA TRANSLATIONS USE FAULTY DICTIONARY AND WRONG UNDERSTANDING OF THE PALI AS THEIR GROUND!

This is of UTTERMOST IMPORTANCE!

The meaning is not conveyed! Even such paramount things as 'mind' are translated / conveyed incorrectly! Even such things as samadhi! Beware my friends! Bring this to your attention! The meaning is LOST IN TRANSLATION and the only way to succeed nowadays is basically on trial and error basis and going through much confusion, especially if you think that the meaning is preserved or even if you think that the words are translated correctly! THEY ARE NOT! WAKE UP MY FRIENDS!
A large part of the Tipiṭaka of which many read and rely on were translated by the prolific Pāḷi scholor Bhikkhu Bodhi. He has been studying the texts for the past 44 years and learnt his Pāḷi under very good monks in Sri Lanka, where he ordained (Sri Lanka is where the texts were first written, which contradicts what you are saying about English scholars using faulty dictionaries and having incorrect understanding of the teachings). Other English-speaking scholars are Nyanaponika Thera (ordained—in Burma, but later studied in Sri Lanka—and extensively studied the texts and Pāḷi for 58 years)— as well as Nyanatiloka Thera (ordained—also in Sri Lanka—and extensively studied the texts and Pāḷi for 54 years). Finally there is Ñāṇamoli Bhikkhu (also ordained in Sri Lanka), who didn't live long, but judging by his works such as his highly regarded and extensive 850-page translation of the Visuddhimagga (as well as his character), I would say he maybe studied the Pāḷi texts 14 hour or so a day for many years. His translations were also well regarded by his peers with 50 years of monkhood and study.

Now, it is a thing to say that there are subtleties that are lost in translation, however, it is another to claim that the translated texts are filled with errors and wrecking havoc with our understanding of the teachings—all the while discrediting half a century's worth of extensive study of Pāḷi and the texts for a number of very good scholars, and having very little examples to support the claim presented. At least, if you would have some good examples, we would have something to work with, but this doesn't seem to be the case.

I am very grateful of the work of these highly prolific bhikkhus. While I know there is some meaning that is lost from translating the texts into English (it is the same for any language), it is far from the truth that these very good monk's translations, with almost all having more than 50 years of extensive study and practice, are a cause for "unpleasantness and confusion". It is quite the contrary.

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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by DNS » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:39 am

samseva wrote: I am very grateful of the work of these highly prolific bhikkhus.
I agree. The work of these bhikkhus and the Rhys Davids in the 19th and 20th centuries can be similar to peer reviewed academic research. The fact that the various translations of all these scholars do not differ significantly, is testament to their correct translations. In scientific method we are careful to not say "proof" or "proves" since something could come along later which might require a better translation, but in general when so many esteemed scholars come to the same conclusions (findings, translations in this case), we can say there is a consensus and generally accept their work as true.

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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by Meggo » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:41 am

@Shuun

Is there a website, a book, a bhikku or a person/ teacher who - from you perspective - teaches the right dhamma?

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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by Spiny Norman » Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:19 am

Shuun wrote:THE SUTTA TRANSLATIONS AND PALI DICTIONARIES ARE FAULTY! THEY ARE NOT CONVEYING THE REAL MEANING AT THIS POINT! MOST OF THE SUTTA TRANSLATIONS USE FAULTY DICTIONARY AND WRONG UNDERSTANDING OF THE PALI AS THEIR GROUND!
Now you tell me! Pah! :tongue: :toilet:
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Shuun
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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by Shuun » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:21 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
samseva wrote: I am very grateful of the work of these highly prolific bhikkhus.
I agree. The work of these bhikkhus and the Rhys Davids in the 19th and 20th centuries can be similar to peer reviewed academic research. The fact that the various translations of all these scholars do not differ significantly, is testament to their correct translations. In scientific method we are careful to not say "proof" or "proves" since something could come along later which might require a better translation, but in general when so many esteemed scholars come to the same conclusions (findings, translations in this case), we can say there is a consensus and generally accept their work as true.
No no no. They all [translations] are rooted into same dictionaries of Rhys Davids & couple of others. Rhys Davids was not Arhant -> that MEANS he did not SEE. It is not an insult, its what it is, it is important to understand the implications.

Anyways, i care not what people have been practicing for 1, 2, 50, or 5000 years if no one is getting enlightened anymore.


Tesaṃ phassa­paretā­naṃ,
Bhava­so­tā­nusā­ri­naṃ;
Kum­magga­paṭi­pannā­naṃ,
Ārā saṃ­yoja­nak­khayo.

Ye ca phassaṃ pariññāya,
Aññāyupasame
ratā;
Te ve phassā­bhisa­mayā,
Nicchātā parinibbutāti.
(so it's said)
"
Struck by contacts,
They flow down the stream of lives,
Practising the bad path,
They are far from the ending of fetters.

But those who fully understand contact,
And with final knowledge have stilled desire,
By comprehending contact,
They are wishless, quenched.
(so it's translated)
"

So what is phassa, again? What does phassa mean to all those schoolars or rather forget them, what does it mean to you? I would like to focus on the Dhamma itself and disregard the history part of it, it is not important. What is important is what you think phassa aka ''contact'' is. I need someone to answer me this question, so that i don't have to conceit and assume what you think first just based on what is in translation. Go on...

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lionking
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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by lionking » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:31 pm

Anyways, i care not what people have been practicing for 1, 2, 50, or 5000 years if no one is getting enlightened anymore.
This person seems to be on the way. Looks like something worked for him.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Meditation/com ... rst_jhana/
grr ..

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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by davidbrainerd » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:40 pm

Shuun wrote:Struck by contacts,
They flow down the stream of lives,
Practising the bad path,
They are far from the ending of fetters.

But those who fully understand contact,
And with final knowledge have stilled desire,
By comprehending contact,
They are wishless, quenched.
(so it's translated)
I.e. don't allow contact with sense objects to cause craving to arise. In other words: Those who are totally passive to contact, for whom seeing is craving or instantly gives rise to craving, will be stuck in the cycle or rebirth.
Shuun wrote:So what is phassa, again? What does phassa mean to all those schoolars or rather forget them, what does it mean to you? I would like to focus on the Dhamma itself and disregard the history part of it, it is not important. What is important is what you think phassa aka ''contact'' is. I need someone to answer me this question, so that i don't have to conceit and assume what you think first just based on what is in translation. Go on...
The word "contact" usually comes in talk about the 5 senses like contact with the eye causes eye-consciousness to arise, contact with the ear causes ear-consciousness to arise, etc.

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Nicolas
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Re: Important! Get the real meaning!

Post by Nicolas » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:46 pm

Shuun wrote:[...]
Chachakka Sutta (MN 148) wrote: ‘Cha phassakāyā veditabbā’ti—iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ. Kiñcetaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ? Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso; sotañca paṭicca sadde ca uppajjati sotaviññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso; ghānañca paṭicca gandhe ca uppajjati ghānaviññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso; jivhañca paṭicca rase ca uppajjati jivhāviññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso; kāyañca paṭicca phoṭṭhabbe ca uppajjati kāyaviññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso; manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso. ‘Cha phassakāyā veditabbā’ti—iti yaṃ taṃ vuttaṃ, idametaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ. Idaṃ catutthaṃ chakkaṃ.
Chachakka Sutta (MN 148) - Bodhi translation wrote: ‘The six classes of contact should be understood.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the ear and sounds, ear-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the nose and odours, nose-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the tongue and flavours, tongue-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the body and tangibles, body-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the mind and mind-objects, mind-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The six classes of contact should be understood.’ This is the fourth set of six.
Chachakka Sutta (MN 148) - Thanissaro translation wrote: 'The six classes of contact should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises consciousness at the ear. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises consciousness at the nose. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises consciousness at the tongue. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. The meeting of the three is contact. 'The six classes of contact should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the fourth sextet.
How is this not clear?

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