Timeless model of Paṭiccasamuppāda

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tiltbillings
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Timeless model of Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:51 pm

Sylvester wrote:
Why break the series which clearly refers to the qualities of the Dhamma as it relates to a person, by introducing a solitary definition of akālika which sets its apart from the series by taking on an abstract quality, instead of a relational quality?
What is interesting is extending this to paṭiccasamuppāda. When paṭiccasamuppāda is called "atemporal," it takes the experiential, relational and empirical aspects pointed to in the terminology (and in the basic concept of paṭiccasamuppāda itself) that is used in the various paṭiccasamuppāda formulae and pushes it beyond the empirical, relational, and directly experiential into mysticism.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re:Timeless model of Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by SDC » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:30 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Sylvester wrote:
Why break the series which clearly refers to the qualities of the Dhamma as it relates to a person, by introducing a solitary definition of akālika which sets its apart from the series by taking on an abstract quality, instead of a relational quality?
What is interesting is extending this to paṭiccasamuppāda. When paṭiccasamuppāda is called "atemporal," it takes the experiential, relational and empirical aspects pointed to in the terminology (and in the basic concept of paṭiccasamuppāda itself) that is used in the various paṭiccasamuppāda formulae and pushes it beyond the empirical, relational, and directly experiential into mysticism.
Understandable, but a comparison between such different models is not so cut and dry; and the only reason it appears that a structural/atemporal/timeless model introduces an abstract quality is because the series is often presented as if it is without this quality in the first place. The whole point that Nanavira is trying to make is that there is no relational quality, in that one cannot step outside the PS structure and find it whole as they would an "ordinary" state of affairs.

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Re: Timeless model of Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:13 am

SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sylvester wrote:
Why break the series which clearly refers to the qualities of the Dhamma as it relates to a person, by introducing a solitary definition of akālika which sets its apart from the series by taking on an abstract quality, instead of a relational quality?
What is interesting is extending this to paṭiccasamuppāda. When paṭiccasamuppāda is called "atemporal," it takes the experiential, relational and empirical aspects pointed to in the terminology (and in the basic concept of paṭiccasamuppāda itself) that is used in the various paṭiccasamuppāda formulae and pushes it beyond the empirical, relational, and directly experiential into mysticism.
Understandable, but a comparison between such different models is not so cut and dry; and the only reason it appears that a structural/atemporal/timeless model introduces an abstract quality is because the series is often presented as if it is without this quality in the first place. The whole point that Nanavira is trying to make is that there is no relational quality, in that one cannot step outside the PS structure and find it whole as they would an "ordinary" state of affairs.
But that does not make it atemporal or timeless. What does atemporal or timeless actually mean in this context? We may not be able to "step outside of the structure," but we can know it as it unfolds, plays itself out, in the process of paying attention to the mind/body process -- the all.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Timeless model of Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:46 am

Greetings,

Does this diversion into the structural or atemporal nature of paticcasamuppada as understood by Nanavira, Buddhadasa, Nanananda et.al. warrant being a new and separate discussion to this one?

Honestly, I'm struggling to see the connection to the topic at hand...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Timeless model of Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by SDC » Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:19 am

Perhaps, Paul. Let's see how deep we all go.

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Re: Timeless model of Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by SDC » Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:30 am

tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:Understandable, but a comparison between such different models is not so cut and dry; and the only reason it appears that a structural/atemporal/timeless model introduces an abstract quality is because the series is often presented as if it is without this quality in the first place. The whole point that Nanavira is trying to make is that there is no relational quality, in that one cannot step outside the PS structure and find it whole as they would an "ordinary" state of affairs.
But that does not make it atemporal or timeless. What does atemporal or timeless actually mean in this context? We may not be able to "step outside of the structure," but we can know it as it unfolds, plays itself out, in the process of paying attention to the mind/body process -- the all.
To paraphrase, Ven. N. Nanamoli: All twelve factors of PS are there simultaneously "in different layers". Regardless of time (process) the experience can be attended to on a very general level of "with ignorance, determinations" or something more specific such as "with birth, aging and death". All depends on how the experience is being attended.

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Re: Timeless model of Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:32 am

SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:Understandable, but a comparison between such different models is not so cut and dry; and the only reason it appears that a structural/atemporal/timeless model introduces an abstract quality is because the series is often presented as if it is without this quality in the first place. The whole point that Nanavira is trying to make is that there is no relational quality, in that one cannot step outside the PS structure and find it whole as they would an "ordinary" state of affairs.
But that does not make it atemporal or timeless. What does atemporal or timeless actually mean in this context? We may not be able to "step outside of the structure," but we can know it as it unfolds, plays itself out, in the process of paying attention to the mind/body process -- the all.
To paraphrase, Ven. N. Nanamoli: All twelve factors of PS are there simultaneously "in different layers". Regardless of time (process) the experience can be attended to on a very general level of "with ignorance, determinations" or something more specific such as "with birth, aging and death". All depends on how the experience is being attended.
And there is nothing "atemporal/timeless" about that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Timeless model of Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by SDC » Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:35 am

tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:To paraphrase, Ven. N. Nanamoli: All twelve factors of PS are there simultaneously "in different layers". Regardless of time (process) the experience can be attended to on a very general level of "with ignorance, determinations" or something more specific such as "with birth, aging and death". All depends on how the experience is being attended.
And there is nothing "atemporal/timeless" about that.
If they are all there together then how can time be a factor?

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Re: Timeless model of Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:45 am

SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:To paraphrase, Ven. N. Nanamoli: All twelve factors of PS are there simultaneously "in different layers". Regardless of time (process) the experience can be attended to on a very general level of "with ignorance, determinations" or something more specific such as "with birth, aging and death". All depends on how the experience is being attended.
And there is nothing "atemporal/timeless" about that.
If they are all there together then how can time be a factor?
In rereading what you just wrote, it makes no sense.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Timeless model of Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by SDC » Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:52 am

tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:If they are all there together then how can time be a factor?
In rereading what you just wrote, it makes no sense.
Ha!

I'm actually happy you feel that way. It means I have properly described it in a way that has no relation to a process model.

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Re: Timeless model of Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:02 am

SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:If they are all there together then how can time be a factor?
In rereading what you just wrote, it makes no sense.
Ha!

I'm actually happy you feel that way. It means I have properly described it in a way that has no relation to a process model.
So, do tell us what atemporal/timeless means here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Timeless model of Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by SDC » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:16 am

tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:Ha!

I'm actually happy you feel that way. It means I have properly described it in a way that has no relation to a process model.
So, do tell us what atemporal/timeless means here.
Take two:

Taking a page from acinteyyo's method of trying to describe this, imagine there is a building. Just a building with twelve floors. The first floor is necessary for the second, second for the third and so on, all the way to twelve. If you to want to visit the fifth floor or the twelfth floor does this require the entire building to be rebuilt up to those floors each time? No. They are all simultaneously present.

Now look at experience in this way. With all twelve factor there together, the different layers are all available and through effort can be known. Though no matter which layer, the principal remains the same: "with this, this is".

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Re: Timeless model of Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:23 am

SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:Ha!

I'm actually happy you feel that way. It means I have properly described it in a way that has no relation to a process model.
So, do tell us what atemporal/timeless means here.
Take two:

Taking a page from acinteyyo's method of trying to describe this, imagine there is a building. Just a building with twelve floors. The first floor is necessary for the second, second for the third and so on, all the way to twelve. If you to want to visit the fifth floor or the twelfth floor does this require the entire building to be rebuilt up to those floors each time? No. They are all simultaneously present.

Now look at experience in this way. With all twelve factor there together, the different layers are all available and through effort can be known. Though no matter which layer, the principal remains the same: "with this, this is".
{{{groan}}} That does not indicate atemporality/timelessness. All that points to is a structure of some functional process.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re:Timeless model of Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by SDC » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:29 am

tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:Take two:

Taking a page from acinteyyo's method of trying to describe this, imagine there is a building. Just a building with twelve floors. The first floor is necessary for the second, second for the third and so on, all the way to twelve. If you to want to visit the fifth floor or the twelfth floor does this require the entire building to be rebuilt up to those floors each time? No. They are all simultaneously present.

Now look at experience in this way. With all twelve factor there together, the different layers are all available and through effort can be known. Though no matter which layer, the principal remains the same: "with this, this is".
{{{groan}}} That does not indicate atemporality/timelessness. All that points to is a structure of some functional process.
No sir, it does not. Nothing "plays out", there is no observing one thing becoming the other. It is all a manner of attending to different aspects and seeing the principal of dependence and NOT a process of them becoming what they are. They are already there. They already are what they are.

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Re: Re:Timeless model of Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:26 am

SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:Take two:

Taking a page from acinteyyo's method of trying to describe this, imagine there is a building. Just a building with twelve floors. The first floor is necessary for the second, second for the third and so on, all the way to twelve. If you to want to visit the fifth floor or the twelfth floor does this require the entire building to be rebuilt up to those floors each time? No. They are all simultaneously present.

Now look at experience in this way. With all twelve factor there together, the different layers are all available and through effort can be known. Though no matter which layer, the principal remains the same: "with this, this is".
{{{groan}}} That does not indicate atemporality/timelessness. All that points to is a structure of some functional process.
No sir, it does not. Nothing "plays out", there is no observing one thing becoming the other.
What are you talking about? I have not talked about "one thing becoming the other."
It is all a manner of attending to different aspects and seeing the principal of dependence and NOT a process of them becoming what they are. They are already there. They already are what they are.
Following that argument a steam locomotive or a computer are atemporal/timeless.

A photo of an atemporal steam locomotive:
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>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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