Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahants?

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SarathW
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Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahants?

Post by SarathW »

Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahnats?

I was listening to the following Dhamma talk.

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/298/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Then thought occurred to my why a Sotapanna (who has eliminated doubt - one of the fetters) will not become a monk and go all the way to become an Arahant.
Only thing, I can think is that he/she still got doubt in their mind.
I can't support this with any reference.
I like to get your opinion.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
santa100
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Re: Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahnats?

Post by santa100 »

SarathW wrote:Then thought occurred to my why a Sotapanna (who has eliminated doubt - one of the fetters) will not become a monk and go all the way to become an Arahant.
Only thing, I can think is that he/she still got doubt in their mind.
Doubt/vicikiccha (about the Buddha, the Teaching, and the Sangha) is eliminated at Stream-entry. The reason a Sotapanna might not want to become a monk is not because he hasn't abandoned doubt but because he hasn't abandoned lust/kamaRaga, the 4th fetter in the 5 lower fetters. A quick analogy, a chain smoker could very well eliminated all doubts about whether smoking has harmful effects on his health. But due to his strong desire/kamaRage for cigarettes, he still smokes nevertheless..
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seeker242
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Re: Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahnats?

Post by seeker242 »

santa100 wrote:A quick analogy, a chain smoker could very well eliminated all doubts about whether smoking has harmful effects on his health. But due to his strong desire/kamaRage for cigarettes, he still smokes nevertheless..
:goodpost: :twothumbsup:
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katavedi
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Re: Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahnats?

Post by katavedi »

It could also be possible that the sotapanna has previous entanglements, like a spouse and young children or elderly parents who require care, and, out of compassion for them, continues to practice in the context of the lay life.

Regarding the type of doubt, though, the glimpse of nibbana at stream entry automatically eliminates doubt in the Buddha (he was right!), the Dhamma (it works!), and the Sangha (they did it too!). And a great deal of doubt in one's own abilities would be eliminated (I saw the goal!). But I could see that a sotapanna might still have doubts about their ability to go all the way in this lifetime. There may still be strong attachment to sensual pleasures, including loved ones.

I'd also like to point out that Citta the Householder was a nonreturner and (as far as I know) never ordained. I'm not sure why he didn't, though I'm sure the commentaries have an authoritative hypothesis.

Kind wishes,
katavedi
“But, Gotamī, when you know of certain things: ‘These things lead to dispassion, not to passion; to detachment, not to attachment; to diminution, not to accumulation; to having few wishes, not to having many wishes; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to socializing; to the arousing of energy, not to indolence; to simple living, not to luxurious living’ – of such things you can be certain: ‘This is the Dhamma; this is the Discipline; this is the Master’s Teaching.’”
SarathW
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Re: Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahnats?

Post by SarathW »

santa100 wrote:
SarathW wrote:Then thought occurred to my why a Sotapanna (who has eliminated doubt - one of the fetters) will not become a monk and go all the way to become an Arahant.
Only thing, I can think is that he/she still got doubt in their mind.
Doubt/vicikiccha (about the Buddha, the Teaching, and the Sangha) is eliminated at Stream-entry. The reason a Sotapanna might not want to become a monk is not because he hasn't abandoned doubt but because he hasn't abandoned lust/kamaRaga, the 4th fetter in the 5 lower fetters. A quick analogy, a chain smoker could very well eliminated all doubts about whether smoking has harmful effects on his health. But due to his strong desire/kamaRage for cigarettes, he still smokes nevertheless..
Thanks Santa.
Many smokers do not believe that smoking effect their health. Perhaps until they reach their death bed. Some smokers live until their 90s while non-smokers died very young. Smoking is only one of the reasons for the death. So the smoker take a risk and continue to smoke.

If a ruthless king ordered the smoker to stop the smoking within seven days or his head will be chopped, the smoker will certainly stop smoking. Because he has no doubt about the king's order
The same way many Buddhist do not really believe in re-birth, kamma and Nibbana etc.
If a person have no any doubt about re-birth etc they will never stop anything short of Nibbana.
Some people see Nibbana as a many life time project.

I think this is the result of not eliminating doubt completely.

There is a Sutta to support that Arahants do not have the faith of the Buddha.
Because they have realise Nibbna themselves.
Can I say not having doubts and the faith is the same?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Dhammanando
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Re: Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahnats?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote:Thanks Santa.
Many smokers do not believe that smoking effect their health. Perhaps until they reach their death bed. Some smokers live until their 90s while non-smokers died very young. Smoking is only one of the reasons for the death. So the smoker take a risk and continue to smoke.
This is irrelevant, for Santa was speaking of a case where the smoker does not doubt the harmfulness of smoking.
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
SarathW
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Re: Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahnats?

Post by SarathW »

I have seen smokers giving up smoking when the doctors give them the ultimatum.
So only at that point they have eliminated all doubts about the effects of smoking.
All smokers think that it will not happen to me as the same way a Puthujana ignores the death.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
santa100
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Re: Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahnats?

Post by santa100 »

SarathW wrote:I have seen smokers giving up smoking when the doctors give them the ultimatum.
So only at that point they have eliminated all doubts about the effects of smoking.
But then there's always some smoker who'd just keep on smoking until they drop dead regardless of doctor's ultimatum. So the problem is not doubt. It's the strong desire. Stream enterers only eliminated the first 3 lower fetters. They have not eliminated desire/kamaRaga, the 4th fetter. And if smoking is not a convincing enough analogy, look at heroin addicts. It's hard to imagine they still have doubt about the effect of heroin, witnessing first-hand its horrible effects on their body and mind, and yet, they still do it..
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Dhammanando
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Re: Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahnats?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote:I have seen smokers giving up smoking when the doctors give them the ultimatum.
So only at that point they have eliminated all doubts about the effects of smoking.
But the analogy is not concerned with smokers like this. To recap ... in your opening post you presented an argument to this effect:

1. If sotāpannas had abandoned the fetter of doubt they would renounce sense-pleasures and go all out for arahantship.
2. But some sotāpannas do not renounce sense-pleasures and go all out for arahantship.
3. Therefore some sotāpannas have not abandoned the fetter of doubt.

_______________________________________

Refutation:

Since the suttas say that sotāpannas have abandoned the fetter of doubt, premise #1 is false, making your conclusion flawed.

_______________________________________


All that remains to be explained is why some sotāpannas, although free of doubt, don’t opt for renunciation. An analogy was offered for this:

Some smokers are in no doubt that it would be better not to smoke; the medical evidence has convinced them of this. But their craving to smoke is stronger than their understanding that it would be better not to. And so against their better judgment they akratically continue to smoke.

Similarly some sotāpannas, though entertaining no doubt that renunciation would be the better course for them, do not embark on that course because their remaining kilesas are stronger than their understanding that renunciation would be better.

Your observation in response to this is that some smokers aren’t convinced by the medical evidence. But this observation is beside the point, for Santa’s analogy isn’t concerned with those kind of smokers. It’s concerned with smokers who don’t doubt.
SarathW wrote:All smokers think that it will not happen to me as the same way a Puthujana ignores the death.
This is obviously not true, for if all smokers thought this then no smokers would ever quit. What you're describing is just one way in which certain smokers try to suppress the worry they feel about their addiction.
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
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seeker242
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Re: Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahnats?

Post by seeker242 »

SarathW wrote:I have seen smokers giving up smoking when the doctors give them the ultimatum.
So only at that point they have eliminated all doubts about the effects of smoking.
As a former smoker, I can say this is not always true. All doubts about the health consequences were gone long before I quit smoking. Many smokers readily know that smoking is unhealthy. It's just that the urge to smoke outweighs the urge to not smoke. Often times doubt, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with it. :)

If doubt is fully eliminated only by arahnats, then the Buddha would have taught that doubt is fully eliminated only by arahnats. But of course we read in the suttas that he didn't teach that. It would be impossible for the Buddha to be wrong about his own teachings!

:meditate:
SarathW
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Re: Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahants?

Post by SarathW »

Thanks for all you replies.
Special thanks to Bhante and Santa.
:bow:

Yes now I realise that doubt is fully eliminated at the Sotapana stage.
Sotapana is assured Nibbana within seven lives. (at least)
So that means he will get their some or other way. (that means no doubt)

However in regard to smoker (what we talk about) there is no assurance that he will definitely quit smoking.
So I still maintain that particular smoker has not fully eliminated the doubt in regard to draw backs of smoking.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahants?

Post by SarathW »

It appears that doubt is fully eliminated only by attaining Anagami.

========

(S 5:61; A 5:13; Vbh 377)
The fourth influx, according to the later model, is the influx of view, would cover conceit and restlessness,
as both of them arise on account of not fully understanding the true nature of the mind and reality,
even at this level of the learner who, although being saints, are still not arhats yet. The influx of view, in
other words is subsumed under the influx of existence.
1.3.3.6 We earlier mentioned that, according to Buddhaghosa, the first two of the 3 fetters are also influxes
(āsava) [1.3.1]; but the third, doubt, is only a fetter (saṁyojana), and not an influx (MA 1:73). This
difference, however, is merely a technicality; for, as we can see the influxes are a simple shorthand for the
10 fetters.
The saints have uprooted, or at least significantly weakened, both the influxes and the fetters. The
path of streamwinning destroys the influx of view (diṭṭh’āsava); the path of non-return, the influx of sensual
desire (kām’āsava); and the path of arhathood, the influxes of existence (bhav’āsava) and of ignorance
(āvijjâsava). However, as noted, the streamwinners, too, have abandoned the influx of views, but
this is of the “lower” kind, which binds us to the sense-world in a negative manner. The arhats, on the
other hand, have fully understood the 4 noble truths, and abandoned all views, including the “higher”
ones, which bind us to the form and formless realms.12

http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 2-piya.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Garrib
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Re: Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahants?

Post by Garrib »

SarathW wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:46 pm It appears that doubt is fully eliminated only by attaining Anagami.
Can you elaborate a bit? I don't think I am following the logic 100% here.
SarathW
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Re: Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahants?

Post by SarathW »

The
path of streamwinning destroys the influx of view (diṭṭh’āsava); the path of non-return, the influx of sensual
desire (kām’āsava)
According to the link provided on Page 29, doubt is categorised as sense desire.
Sense-desire is fully eliminated only by attaining Anagami.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Bundokji
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Re: Doubt is fully eliminated only by Arahnats?

Post by Bundokji »

Dhammanando wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:50 am Some smokers are in no doubt that it would be better not to smoke; the medical evidence has convinced them of this. But their craving to smoke is stronger than their understanding that it would be better not to. And so against their better judgment they akratically continue to smoke.

Similarly some sotāpannas, though entertaining no doubt that renunciation would be the better course for them, do not embark on that course because their remaining kilesas are stronger than their understanding that renunciation would be better.
When we speak about doubt, we are also investigating what does it mean to "know". If knowledge is a mere intellectual belief, then the above would be true, that it is possible to know something and not act accordingly.

However, not all beliefs are clear enough to the holder of such beliefs. If the sotapanna truly knew that renunciation is better than indulgence, it would be logically impossible to act differently. The choice of words (kilesas vs understanding) might be misleading here, because the kilesas themselves don't exist in a vacuum, and they are held on deeply-rooted beliefs that seeking pleasure is worth the pain.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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