Conceptualization of Internal Body Movements
Conceptualization of Internal Body Movements
How can one voluntarily move one's body internally without falsely conceptualizing what is going on?
Re: Conceptualization of Internal Body Movements
If we take a look at MN1, it is common for many of us to conceive the body once it has been noticed in the experience:
A very interesting observation on mindfulness by Ven. Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli:
From MN10:
Just my take. I hope this helps.
- Here, bhikkhus, an untaught ordinary man who has no regard for Noble Ones and is unconversant with their True Idea and undisciplined in it, who has no regard for True Man and is unconversant with their True Idea and undisciplined in it:
From earth he has a percept of earth; having had from earth a percept of earth, he conceives (that to be) earth, he conceives (that to be) in earth, he conceives (that to be apart) from earth, he conceives earth to be ‘Mine’, he relishes earth. Why is that? He has not fully diagnosed it, I say.
A very interesting observation on mindfulness by Ven. Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli:
- If one is to understand that whether it is the ordinary experience of one’s body in everyday existence, or an unusual one resulting from the new practice of concentration, or even a strange sense of lightness of one’s body on drugs, in phenomenological terms – body is just there. Thus, again, regardless of the particular way one’s body presents itself, it is the phenomenon of body that is present, and that’s what one should be concerned with...
If one succeeds in leaving [the body] peripheral (i.e. the way it has arisen), one is practicing mindfulness correctly. The tendency towards ‘conceivings’ will slowly fade when the mindfulness reaches the necessary extent. Again, knowledge of what the conceiving is (i.e. not understanding the phenomenon of simultaneously and dependently present and leaving it as such), is an absolute requirement, because without it this whole practice won’t bear fruits of any fundamental importance. - Notes On Meditation
The conceiving is likely to continue, but as long as you begin to try and take away something more general from the situation, the conceivings will begin to slow and will no longer be the primary focus. So no matter what the position of the body (sitting, standing, etc.), no matter what conceivings are there, try to focus on 'the body is there'; there is conceiving because the body is there.Tom wrote:How can one voluntarily move one's body internally without falsely conceptualizing what is going on?
From MN10:
- Or mindfulness is established that ‘There is a body’, to the extent necessary for knowledge and mindfulness. They meditate independent, not grasping at anything in the world. This too is how a monastic meditates by observing an aspect of the body.
Just my take. I hope this helps.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Conceptualization of Internal Body Movements
What sort of thing do you mean? Like tensing and relaxing muscles for example?Tom wrote:How can one voluntarily move one's body internally without falsely conceptualizing what is going on?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Conceptualization of Internal Body Movements
Hi Tom,
It might help if you could explain what you are trying to achieve. It seems to me that to function normally one needs to make use of concepts. In the suttas we see the Buddha talking about people, pains in the back, and so on.
Under controlled conditions, with some meditation approaches, and the development of a high degree of concentration and mindfulness, it's possible to discern that what we think of as, say, "arm", can "dissolve" into a collection of phenomena. Is that the sort of thing you're aiming at?
Mike
It might help if you could explain what you are trying to achieve. It seems to me that to function normally one needs to make use of concepts. In the suttas we see the Buddha talking about people, pains in the back, and so on.
Under controlled conditions, with some meditation approaches, and the development of a high degree of concentration and mindfulness, it's possible to discern that what we think of as, say, "arm", can "dissolve" into a collection of phenomena. Is that the sort of thing you're aiming at?
Mike
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Re: Conceptualization of Internal Body Movements
Tom wrote:How can one voluntarily move one's body internally without falsely conceptualizing what is going on?
Because of fear of non-being.
not sure this answers your intention?
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth
Re: Conceptualization of Internal Body Movements
Ven. Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli wrote:
If one succeeds in leaving [the body] peripheral (i.e. the way it has arisen), one is practicing mindfulness correctly. The tendency towards ‘conceivings’ will slowly fade when the mindfulness reaches the necessary extent. Again, knowledge of what the conceiving is (i.e. not understanding the phenomenon of simultaneously and dependently present and leaving it as such), is an absolute requirement, because without it this whole practice won’t bear fruits of any fundamental importance. emphasis added - Notes On Meditation
Ven. Ñanavira took note of this sutta in his marginalia to the P.T.S. edition of the Samyutta Nikaya, though he doesn't seem to have noticed the Burmese reading above which reads "nirujjhati" for 'virajjati' in regards to each of the external bases which appears in the footnotes of variant readings.‘tasmātiha, bhikkhave, se āyatane veditabbe yattha cakkhu ca nirujjhati, rūpasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe … pe … yattha jivhā ca nirujjhati, rasasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe … pe … yattha mano ca nirujjhati, dhammasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe’ti.
“Therefore, bhikkhus, that base should be understood, where the eye ceases and perception of forms ceases. That base should be understood, where the ear ceases and perception of sounds ceases.… That base should be understood, where the mind ceases and perception of mental phenomena ceases. That base should be understood.” SN 35.117
Last edited by pulga on Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
Re: Conceptualization of Internal Body Movements
By being wakeful and aware throughout the body, not "of" the body. Not getting bogged down in imagining, conceptualizing or "watching yourself."Tom wrote:How can one voluntarily move one's body internally without falsely conceptualizing what is going on?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... ml#method26. Spread your awareness — your sense of conscious feeling — throughout the entire body.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Re: Conceptualization of Internal Body Movements
What's the difference between being aware throughout the body and being aware of the body?kirk5a wrote:By being wakeful and aware throughout the body, not "of" the body. Not getting bogged down in imagining, conceptualizing or "watching yourself."Tom wrote:How can one voluntarily move one's body internally without falsely conceptualizing what is going on?http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... ml#method26. Spread your awareness — your sense of conscious feeling — throughout the entire body.
Re: Conceptualization of Internal Body Movements
What I was getting at with "of" is objectifying the body through mental imagery.Tom wrote: What's the difference between being aware throughout the body and being aware of the body?
For example, being aware "in and with" your feet means you are aware right there, with your feet. Your own awareness extends all the way down throughout the whole body and down throughout your feet. Your awareness is not just stuck in your head.
Being aware "of" your feet is like having an image of your feet, that you look at from the standpoint of your head. Like you are staring at your feet visually, instead of feeling with your feet, right at and with the feet.
That might sound odd, but once you feel out the principle, it is quite natural and clear. Straightening out the posture, whether sitting or standing, helps this along.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Re: Conceptualization of Internal Body Movements
Thank you all, so far
Not sure, I understand you 100% but I think I understand it somewhat. Perhaps, if I were to work with doing this I'll get more of the gist of what you're saying.kirk5a wrote:What I was getting at with "of" is objectifying the body through mental imagery.Tom wrote: What's the difference between being aware throughout the body and being aware of the body?
For example, being aware "in and with" your feet means you are aware right there, with your feet. Your own awareness extends all the way down throughout the whole body and down throughout your feet. Your awareness is not just stuck in your head.
Being aware "of" your feet is like having an image of your feet, that you look at from the standpoint of your head. Like you are staring at your feet visually, instead of feeling with your feet, right at and with the feet.
That might sound odd, but once you feel out the principle, it is quite natural and clear. Straightening out the posture, whether sitting or standing, helps this along.
If all voluntary internal movement is due to muscles, then muscle movement is what I'm referring toSpiny Norman wrote:What sort of thing do you mean? Like tensing and relaxing muscles for example?Tom wrote:How can one voluntarily move one's body internally without falsely conceptualizing what is going on?
I'm not afraid of concepts, just false concepts. Like one might conceptualize air moving through ones body and create a "de-tensing" sensation, but if this isn't actually happening, this would be a delusion. I'm been feeling rather stuck and tense lately physically because I feel a bit lost on how to conceptualize voluntary internal movements. Ultimately what I'm seeking is a Buddhist perspective on how to always maintain the best ease in the body possible in whatever activities one is doingmikenz66 wrote:Hi Tom,
It might help if you could explain what you are trying to achieve. It seems to me that to function normally one needs to make use of concepts. In the suttas we see the Buddha talking about people, pains in the back, and so on.
Under controlled conditions, with some meditation approaches, and the development of a high degree of concentration and mindfulness, it's possible to discern that what we think of as, say, "arm", can "dissolve" into a collection of phenomena. Is that the sort of thing you're aiming at?
Mike
Last edited by Tom on Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Conceptualization of Internal Body Movements
There seems to be some confusion about what you are trying to achieve.
What exactly are you practicing, and from what source have you learned it from ?
The way I was thought is - keep it simple: if you're aware of your feet, be mindful of that, if your awareness is stuck in your head, be mindful of that.
And if you find yourself wondering where your awareness is and in what direction your awareness should travel, and how that traveling movement should feel, be mindful that you are thinking, wondering, mentally fabricating
But compartmentalizing Buddhism is not helpful, we should often refer back to the Noble Eightfold Path.
Also, practicing towards a practical goal (such as wishing to achieve something in the body) can be an obstacle to practice.
Something I found helpful and maybe a more integrated and practical approach to your question:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUMEd3b ... 006C0D3D4A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Probably the first 10 minutes or so from the video should be relevant to your question.
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Also, it may be helpful to make a difference between relaxing your body and allowing it to relax. I think Ajahn Brahm approach is that you should not interfere with the body's ability to relax. In which case, it will relax to the it's current ability, sometimes more, sometimes less. And we are not trying to force anything beyond that.
What exactly are you practicing, and from what source have you learned it from ?
Maybe I got it wrong, but you seem to objectify your awareness into an object that arises in your head and travels all the way to your feet. This sounds similar to visualizing body energies, and I doubt we practice this here. That is done in martial arts and other teachings.Your own awareness extends all the way down throughout the whole body and down throughout your feet. Your awareness is not just stuck in your head.
The way I was thought is - keep it simple: if you're aware of your feet, be mindful of that, if your awareness is stuck in your head, be mindful of that.
And if you find yourself wondering where your awareness is and in what direction your awareness should travel, and how that traveling movement should feel, be mindful that you are thinking, wondering, mentally fabricating
To my understanding, Buddhism is about the mind, not the body. The body only exist as it is experienced in the mind. A short answer to your question may be: If your body is at best ease, be mindful of that, if there is unease in your body, be mindful of that.Ultimately what I'm seeking is a Buddhist perspective on how to always maintain the best ease in the body possible in whatever activities one is doing
But compartmentalizing Buddhism is not helpful, we should often refer back to the Noble Eightfold Path.
Also, practicing towards a practical goal (such as wishing to achieve something in the body) can be an obstacle to practice.
Something I found helpful and maybe a more integrated and practical approach to your question:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUMEd3b ... 006C0D3D4A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Probably the first 10 minutes or so from the video should be relevant to your question.
----
Also, it may be helpful to make a difference between relaxing your body and allowing it to relax. I think Ajahn Brahm approach is that you should not interfere with the body's ability to relax. In which case, it will relax to the it's current ability, sometimes more, sometimes less. And we are not trying to force anything beyond that.
Re: Conceptualization of Internal Body Movements
I'm sure you will. The main point to develop is just like Ajahn Lee said:Tom wrote: Not sure, I understand you 100% but I think I understand it somewhat. Perhaps, if I were to work with doing this I'll get more of the gist of what you're saying.
Once you get the hang of this I assure you there no delusion involved. It's not an imaginary thing. It is a matter of wakefulness itself, by which delusion dissolves.6. Spread your awareness — your sense of conscious feeling — throughout the entire body.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230