Earlier in the thread I defined "subconscious" as ""existing in the mind but not immediately available to consciousness".
I have difficulty finding clarity in this definition, and fear it can be a source of confusion.
If you find a mental object that is "available", how can you prove that it existed before it became available ?
And if you cannot prove that, what does the definition apply to ?
Let me cite again, what I started with:
"There is much here that contradicts modern psychological assumptions. To cite just the most glaring example, there is no place in abhidhamma for the " subconscious" as understood in modern terms. Consciousness is seen as arising momentarily upon a single object, there is no room for multiple levels of consciousness happening simultaneously."
Let me take my example again:
"I like somebody very much. I don't know exactly why and I start investigating why I like this particular person. Then I start having sexual thoughts about this person while exploring my feelings and thoughts.
Do these thoughts come from the subconsciousness?"
Psychologists would probably call it suppressed feelings that emerge from the subconscious (or unconscious).
In Buddhism we have the "ten fetters" from the Sutta Pitaka ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_%28Buddhism%29
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ), one of which is "sensual desire". And the Anusaya Sutta gives us "the obsession of sensual passion". We also have "dependent arising" in buddhism.
This is enough material to explain the sexual thoughts from the example.
And these thoughts are formed the moment they arise, they were NOT (lying dormant) subconscious, as you asserted in an earlier post:
I said: Sure, underlying tendencies play a role but can thoughts be subconscious? I doubt it.
You said: Of course they can.
I think this gives a good definition of subconscious:
"The subconscious is the part of our mind that is not in current awareness. It is the part of our consciousness that is not being focused on and is lying dormant. It is impossible to hold the entirety of our knowledge in direct focus in our minds at the same time so we need to store memories and knowledge. This storage is known as the subconscious, the term being coined by Pierre Janet. The subconscious stores all of your memories, beliefs, previous experiences, the people/places you have seen, and the skills you have acquired. Information in the subconscious cannot be recalled easily, they are buried deep within our minds (or repressed)."
source: http://www.alleydog.com/glossary/defini ... bconscious
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Note that this definition does NOT include thoughts.
The source you gave, says:
"When these habits become so automatic that we are not even aware of them, then we call them “subconscious”. Subconscious just means out of awareness. It doesn’t mean that we cannot become aware of the thoughts it just means that they are so automatic that we don’t recognize them. "
And that mislead you to believe that thoughts can be subconscious. Reactions can be automatic, without thought. "Subconscious" if you want, but thoughts cannot be subconscious. Example:
If a dangerous dog comes running towards you, you might start running, to get away, without thinking. That reaction, you might call "automatic", coming from the "subconsciousness". ----> And I would not call it subconsciousness, but an automatic response pattern stored in the brain.
If you don't start running immediately but start thinking about the best way to escape the dog or not getting harmed by it - then we are talking about thoughts and they are definitely not subconscious.
The thing being wrong with your source is that it starts with actions without thought "automatic habits" (non-volitional) and then says there are thoughts (volitional) behind these actions.
When the phone rings, most of the time I just pick it up without any thought. But when I am speaking with somebody else and I say "wait a second, I must pick up the phone", only then there is a thought.
And that concludes my discussion with you:-)
“Look on the world as empty, Mogharāja, being always mindful.
Having removed wrong view of self, in this way one will cross beyond Death.
When looking on the world in this way the king of Death does not see one.” - Sn 5.15