not self

[katavedi]

If you have no control over the mind then how are you supposed to replace unwholesome thoughts with wholesome?

You are not supposed to do that. The practice is to observe the thoughts and their results, not replace them.

From MN 19, "Two Kinds of Thoughts":

Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still only an unenlightened Bodhisatta, it occurred to me: ‘Suppose that I divide my thoughts into two classes. Then I set on one side thoughts of sensual desire, thoughts of ill will, and thoughts of cruelty, and I set on the other side thoughts of renunciation, thoughts of non-ill will, and thoughts of non-cruelty.

“As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute,
a thought of sensual desire arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of sensual desire has arisen in me. This leads to my own affliction, to others’ affliction, and to the affliction of both; it obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna.’ When I considered: ‘This leads to my own affliction,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This leads to others’ affliction,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This leads to the affliction of both,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna,’ it subsided in me. Whenever a thought of sensual desire arose in me, I abandoned it, removed it, did away with it.

“As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of ill will arose in me…a thought of cruelty arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of cruelty has arisen in me. This leads to my own affliction, to others’ affliction, and to the affliction of both; it obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna.‘ When I considered thus…it subsided in me. Whenever a thought of cruelty arose in me, I abandoned it, removed it, did away with it.

“Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of sensual desire, he has abandoned the thought of renunciation to cultivate the thought of sensual desire, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of sensual desire. If he frequently thinks and ponders thoughts of sensual desire. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of ill will…upon thoughts of cruelty, he has abandoned the thought of non-cruelty to cultivate the thought of cruelty, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of cruelty.

“Just as in the last month of the rainy season, in the autumn, when the crops thicken, a cowherd would guard his cows by constantly tapping and poking them on this side and that with a stick to check and curb them. Why is that? Because he sees that he could be flogged, imprisoned, fined, or blamed if he let them stray into the crops. So too I saw in unwholesome states danger, degradation, and defilement, and in wholesome states the blessing of renunciation, the aspect of cleansing.

From MN 2, "All the Taints":

“What taints, bhikkhus, should be abandoned by removing? Here a bhikkhu, reflecting wisely, does not tolerate an arisen thought of sensual desire; he abandons it, removes it, does away with it, and annihilates it. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill will … He does not tolerate an arisen thought of cruelty … He does not tolerate arisen evil unwholesome states; he abandons them, removes them, does away with them, and annihilates them. While taints, vexation, and fever might arise in one who does not remove these thoughts, there are no taints, vexation, or fever in one who removes them. These are called the taints that should be abandoned by removing.

I'm not implying that just observing an unwholesome mind state doesn't sometimes allow it to pass on its own. When mindfulness is strong enough, simply looking at the unwholesome state with equanimity is enough. But not always. Hence, from MN 101, "At Devadaha":

And how is exertion fruitful, bhikkhus, how is striving fruitful? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu is not overwhelmed by suffering and does not overwhelm himself with suffering; and he does not give up the pleasure that accords with Dhamma, yet he is not infatuated with that pleasure.

He knows thus: “When I strive with determination, this particu­lar source of suffering fades away in me because of that determined striving; and when I look on with equanimity, this particular source of suffering fades away in me while I develop equanimity.”

He strives with determination in regard to that particular source of suffering which fades away in him because of that determined striv­ing; and he develops equanimity in regard to that particular source of suffering which fades away in him while he is developing equanim­ity. When he strives with determina­tion, such and such a source of suf­fering fades away in him because of that determined striving; thus that suffering is exhausted in him. When he looks on with equanim­ity, such and such a source of suf­fering fades away in him while he develops equanimity; thus that suffering is exhausted in him.

Kind wishes,
katavedi

[Pinetree]

The first quote you gave is exactly what I said: observe the thoughts and their results.

The quote is quite helpful as clarification, but I hope from those quotes there is no implication that we can control the mind.

From observation arises understanding. And from that arises letting go. That is not an instance of controlling. Because you cannot "make it happen". Controlling unwholesome thoughts really means suppression, which doesn't work that well.

And I feel it's very important to emphasize this, because otherwise, we are reinforcing the self: we create the illusion that the self can free itself from suffering.

The second and third quotes may be somewhat confusing, because it's not very clear how one can create from scratch the intolerance, equanimity and determination that are mentioned.

The point I am making is practical: we can't control the thoughts. If you think you can do that, try this: for the next 5 minutes, think of a pink elephant - and nothing else, then for another 5 minutes, think of anything else, *but* a pink elephant, then for yet another 5 minutes, think of nothing.

[Nicolas]

[MN 19, MN 2, MN 101]

I'd also add the Vitakka­saṇṭhāna Sutta (MN 20) (which, incidentally, ends with "This bhikkhu is then called a master of the courses of thought. He will think whatever thought he wishes to think and he will not think any thought that he does not wish to think").
Awareness alone is not enough. Right effort!

[kirk5a]

The point I am making is practical: we can't control the thoughts.

Not entirely true, it's something which can be mastered.

"He thinks any thought he wants to think, and doesn't think any thought he doesn't want to think. He wills any resolve he wants to will, and doesn't will any resolve he doesn't want to will. He has attained mastery of the mind with regard to the pathways of thought.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The teachings on anatta - not self - should not be taken to such an extreme that one imagines a total lack of self-control. We are not deterministic automatons.

What do you think, brahmin, is there an element or principle of initiating or beginning an action?”[3]
...
“What do you think, brahmin, is there an element of exertion [6] ... is there an element of effort [7] ... is there an element of steadfastness [8] ... is there an element of persistence [9] ... is there an element of endeavoring?”

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .niza.html

[Pinetree]

Not entirely true, it's something which can be mastered.

I can see that it can be interpreted in this way, and I suspect the results would be quite unsatisfactory in this case.

Like I said before, I am making a practical point, if it works for you, all good.

"He thinks any thought he wants to think, and doesn't think any thought he doesn't want to think. He wills any resolve he wants to will, and doesn't will any resolve he doesn't want to will. He has attained mastery of the mind with regard to the pathways of thought.

I have 2 objections to this:

1. People often summon quotes leaving room for the implication: "See, Buddha did this, let's all do the same !"

My objection: not practical, not helpful. The practice requires a gradual approach.

2. My understanding of the quote is totally different: it talks about not having inner conflict.

So, when we think or do something, what often follows is doubt, guilt, anxiety, regret, etc. So we will often do something, then think: "No, it's not what I wanted to do, I should have done otherwise."

Shortly, it does not talk about control , but about consensus, harmony, peace.

[katavedi]

Hi Pinetree,

The first quote you gave is exactly what I said: observe the thoughts and their results.

I was trying to emphasize the part in bold and underlined: "Whenever a thought of sensual desire arose in me, I abandoned it, removed it, did away with it." To me, this seems to indicate more involvement and "doing" than just watching a thought arise and pass.

I know that you practice in the Mahasi tradition, and I also practiced seriously in that tradition for several years. I know that the method is to note the arising and passing of all phenomena at any of the sense doors, regardless of whether thoughts/intentions/emotions are wholesome or unwholesome. The idea is to see them all as impermanent, empty phenomena. I do have great confidence in this method, and I know that it works well to produce deep insight. But I think that, for some people, it doesn't improve the quality of their everyday mind states until pretty far into the stages of insight.

The quote is quite helpful as clarification, but I hope from those quotes there is no implication that we can control the mind.

We can't control the nature of the mind, but we can surely dispel an unwholesome thought and deliberately think a wholesome one. So the mind can be trained to function in a way that leads to good results. Otherwise there would be no hope of practice and, therefore, no hope of liberation.

From observation arises understanding. And from that arises letting go. That is not an instance of controlling. Because you cannot "make it happen".

I'm not sure what "it" refers to when you say "you cannot 'make it happen.'" If you mean you cannot make understanding happen, I heartily agree with you. If only we could........... But if "it" refers to letting go, that's a different story. Of course, you cannot force letting go; you just let go. But it can certainly be done deliberately. In the Mahasi method, you must continually have the intention to let go of whatever arises; otherwise, you'd get stuck reacting to many sense contacts. So there is a deliberate, continuous letting go. Those who practice jhana must constantly let go of discursive thoughts, for example, in order to enter the first jhana. This is a deliberate letting go too.

And I feel it's very important to emphasize this, because otherwise, we are reinforcing the self: we create the illusion that the self can free itself from suffering.

I understand what you're saying, and I do agree with you. There is no freedom from suffering with the self still intact. And I think you're saying that "I" can never get rid of suffering, because only when we see that there is no "I" to suffer will suffering end. Agreed. And yet, until that is fully realized, we will unavoidably be using the self to practice. In this respect, AN 4.159 comes to mind:

"When it was said: 'This body has originated from conceit; in dependence on conceit, conceit is to be abandoned,' for what reason was this said? Here, sister, a bhikkhu hears: 'This bhikkhu namd so-and-so, with the destruction of the taints, has realized for himself with direct knowledge, in this very life, the taintless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, and having entered upon it, he dwells in it.' He thinks: 'When will I, with the destruction of the taints, realize for myself with direct knowledge, in this very life, the taintless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, and having entered upon it, dwell in it?' Some time later, in dependence upon conceit, he abandons craving. When it was said: 'This body has originated from conceit; in dependence on conceit, conceit is to be abandoned,' it was because of this that this was said."

The second and third quotes may be somewhat confusing, because it's not very clear how one can create from scratch the intolerance, equanimity and determination that are mentioned.

Of course, nothing arises without a cause, so there is nothing "from scratch". Not tolerating an arisen thought of anger (what I assume you're referring to when referring to "intolerance") arises from contact (becoming aware of the thought), perception (recognizing it as anger), discernment (knowing wholesome from unwholesome), intention (to practice with it), to name a few of the pertinent mental factors involved. And each of these factors arise from causes too.

The point I am making is practical: we can't control the thoughts. If you think you can do that, try this: for the next 5 minutes, think of a pink elephant - and nothing else, then for another 5 minutes, think of anything else, *but* a pink elephant, then for yet another 5 minutes, think of nothing.

I'm not trying to be a smart aleck here, Pinetree, but I actually can do that. The focus of my practice for the last four years has been to develop the jhanas, and, once I learned them, to train to be able to do them at home (i.e., not needing retreat conditions). So I've been practicing keeping the attention on one object for extended periods of time for a while now.

Kind wishes,
katavedi

[kirk5a]

Not entirely true, it's something which can be mastered.

I can see that it can be interpreted in this way, and I suspect the results would be quite unsatisfactory in this case.

Like I said before, I am making a practical point, when you achieve this, give us a buzz, we would like you to teach us.

I don't think it would go very well to say "hey everybody, I've achieved mastery with regard to the pathways of thought! I'm here to teach." Still, I can see the flavor and truth of the Buddha's statements for myself without laying claim to mastery. As far as practical points go, I am also making a practical point, but it's a point more along the lines of making deliberate effort towards improved mental qualities. a.k.a. "right effort."

"He thinks any thought he wants to think, and doesn't think any thought he doesn't want to think. He wills any resolve he wants to will, and doesn't will any resolve he doesn't want to will. He has attained mastery of the mind with regard to the pathways of thought.

I have 2 objections to this:

1. People often summon quotes leaving room for the implication: "See, Buddha did this, let's all do the same !"

My objection: not practical, not helpful. The practice requires a gradual approach.

Can't say I get your objection. A gradual approach to what? To what the Buddha did. Pretty much everyone who practices is quickly disabused of the idea that this is going to happen overnight. But positive results do manifest along the way, so this keeps us going. So the question here is what to do if you've been going along for years and nothing really positive is coming of it. My opinion is that something needs to be adjusted in the practice. Because there should be improvement.

2. My understanding of the quote is totally different: it talks about not having inner conflict.

So, when we think or do something, what often follows is doubt, guilt, anxiety, regret, etc. So we will often do something, then think: "No, it's not what I wanted to do, I should have done otherwise."

Shortly, it does not talk about control , but about consensus, harmony, peace.

I don't know what your beef with control is. Developing control of one's own faculties ("mastery") - "gradually" to the extent that we can at the moment, and to the extent it is feasible - is an empowering and necessary part of the practice. This does not contract the teachings on anatta one tiny little bit. Some people think it does, but I think they are misguided.

[Pinetree]

To me, this seems to indicate more involvement and "doing" than just watching a thought arise and pass.

I would say that there is "involvement" arising and ceasing

If Buddha was talking about "I", he was refering to it conventionally, so we shouldn't squeeze any meaning out of this that may suggest there is a self at work.

As a practical point, I doubt that you can prove that you're deliberately doing the letting go. Even to yourself.

I don't object to involvement, but saying that you are not making it happen.

I'm not sure what "it" refers to when you say "you cannot 'make it happen.'

"It" is meant open source - can be used for whatever comes up in the conversation (on the topic of control).

And yet, until that is fully realized, we will unavoidably be using the self to practice.

Or, to put it differently, we will be practicing in spite of the self.

I'm not trying to be a smart aleck here, Pinetree, but I actually can do that.

That is quite inspiring. But I would be curious as to how actually the mechanics of the elephant arising and ceasing happen.

Anyway, the example was just pointing out that the mind has flaws. It is not technically correct, because the practice needs to happen in the present moment.

So, in the moment that you are thinking of a pink elephant, you cannot undo that thinking at that same moment. And in the moment where you are deliberately letting go, you cannot undo that.

So, the present moment cannot be controlled, and the future is ... uncertain

Can't say I get your objection. A gradual approach to what? To what the Buddha did. Pretty much everyone who practices is quickly disabused of the idea that this is going to happen overnight.

Yes, this was my objection that we are relating to an unrealistic goal.

So the question here is what to do if you've been going along for years and nothing really positive is coming of it. My opinion is that something needs to be adjusted in the practice. Because there should be improvement.

Yes, and maybe first thing that needs to be adjusted is the timeframe: from "5 years" to "the present moment".

And that's where we can look and see what's the problem. Having a targeted approach is critical.

I don't know what your beef with control is.

Well, I fear it has a high-bandwidth connection to the self.

When we perceive presence of control, the self-esteem increases, when we perceive lack of control, we have lack of confidence.

At least the way the word is used conventionally. Maybe you can work with the concept of control without these downfalls, but I still don't think it's a useful concept, and there is still danger when other people hear about it and beat themselves up for not having enough self-control.

Also, I don't believe there is any control in the present moment where the practice should happen. So, any reference to control actually interrupts the practice.

[kirk5a]

Also, I don't believe there is any control in the present moment where the practice should happen. So, any reference to control actually interrupts the practice.

You can believe that, but it's incompatible with right effort.

[Pinetree]

Right effort is related to letting go which is not clinging, not craving.

So letting go is not something you do, it's something you don't.

[Nicolas]

Right effort is related to letting go which is not clinging, not craving.

So letting go is not something you do, it's something you don't.

And what, bhikkhus, is right effort? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu generates desire for the nonarising of unarisen evil unwholesome states; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates desire for the abandoning of arisen evil unwholesome states…. He generates desire for the arising of unarisen wholesome states…. He generates desire for the maintenance of arisen wholesome states, for their nondecay, increase, expansion, and fulfilment by development; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. This is called right effort.

[Pinetree]

That is a very interesting quote, but to go back to control, it is command, domination over the outcome, it is related to the certainty of a result (or one could say, clinging to the outcome).

Striving isn't, I see striving as focusing on the task (as opposed to the outcome). You strive and maybe you get it, maybe you don't (instead of constantly looking back to check on your progress). Desire is more problematic, and I can imagine that desire for enlightenment can become a hindrance. And the confidence in the outcome is faith (just to cover that base).

And I would still say that at the moment a monk generates desire, he could not possibly not generate it.

And at the exact moment that you don't have "enough energy" (or have that belief), you cannot possibly summon more. And if, instead of observing your lack of energy, you complain about it, that will interrupt your practice. And the practice can be resumed if you are acknowledging the fact that you are complaining.

But the bottom line is - whatever you call it, if you can see objectively that control helps your progress on the path, use it. If it hinders it, if it causes suffering, stop controlling.

[The Thinker]

We do not own the moment, but we can live the moment, insofar that we can make the best decision possible in that moment, the process of slowing the thought pattern down and reflection is of great use before the moment of Cetanā(direction or intention in moment just before action) and then action(karma) but time very often makes necessary for snap decisions, practicing and understanding the four noble truths and the eightfold path does help when it comes to that snap decision moment(but take the time to think things through if the chance and time is available).

[Billy5000]

See this is exactly what I mean about contradictions and confusion. Nobody agrees on anything. How is anyone supposed to understand and know they are practicing correctly with so many conflicting views? I give up.

[Pinetree]

Ideally you need to discuss these issues with a teacher.

That is the risk when you post on forums. Also, I generally stay away from general and big topics such as "not self". Also, sometimes the topics grow into debate on theory, not practical advice. Practice is what creates progress.

However, if you read up carefully, we did have a number of points of agreement Like ... keep it simple, value the present moment, and relax, don't force your mind.

And what you can't understand ... just ignore it until you do, I really don't see a better solution. Usually works for me.

---

Also, you need to formulate to yourself, exactly what parts of the practice you find difficulty in and work on a case to case basis.

Personally, I don't worry too much about theory, only about the little bit of theory needed to keep the practice going.

See this is exactly what I mean about contradictions and confusion.

Talking about practice, are you noting "confused, confused" ? I had to do that few times in this thread, it's 60 posts now.