Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
chownah
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Postby chownah » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:15 am

From what I posted last time it seems that in fact prayers are words. I'll keep watching and see if there is any indication that prayers are possible without words.
If prayers are words then what distinguishes prayers from other words? Intention? Intended recipient? Posture? Place? Choice of words? Emotional response?....?....? something else?
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Postby chownah » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:22 am

Is this a prayer?

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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Postby Buddha Vacana » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:11 pm

"Even though this wish may occur to a monk who dwells without devoting himself to development — 'O that my mind might be released from effluents through lack of clinging!' — still his mind is not released from the effluents through lack of clinging. Why is that? From lack of developing, it should be said. Lack of developing what? The four frames of reference, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path.

"Suppose a hen has eight, ten, or twelve eggs: If she doesn't cover them rightly, warm them rightly, or incubate them rightly, then even though this wish may occur to her — 'O that my chicks might break through the egg shells with their spiked claws or beaks and hatch out safely!' — still it is not possible that the chicks will break through the egg shells with their spiked claws or beaks and hatch out safely. Why is that? Because the hen has not covered them rightly, warmed them rightly, or incubated them rightly. In the same way, even though this wish may occur to a monk who dwells without devoting himself to development — 'O that my mind might be released from effluents through lack of clinging!' — still his mind is not released from the effluents through lack of clinging. Why is that? From lack of developing, it should be said. Lack of developing what? The four frames of reference, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path.

"Even though this wish may not occur to a monk who dwells devoting himself to development — 'O that my mind might be released from effluents through lack of clinging!' — still his mind is released from the effluents through lack of clinging. Why is that? From developing, it should be said. Developing what? The four frames of reference, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path.

"Suppose a hen has eight, ten, or twelve eggs that she covers rightly, warms rightly, & incubates rightly: Even though this wish may not occur to her — 'O that my chicks might break through the egg shells with their spiked claws or beaks and hatch out safely!' — still it is possible that the chicks will break through the egg shells with their spiked claws or beaks and hatch out safely. Why is that? Because the hen has covered them, warmed them, & incubated them rightly. In the same way, even though this wish may not occur to a monk who dwells devoting himself to development — 'O that my mind might be released from effluents through lack of clinging!' — still his mind is released from the effluents through lack of clinging. Why is that? From developing, it should be said. Developing what? The four frames of reference, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



"Ananda, the twin sal-trees are in full bloom, even though it's not the flowering season. They shower, strew, & sprinkle on the Tathagata's body in homage to him. Heavenly coral-tree blossoms are falling from the sky... Heavenly sandalwood powder is falling from the sky... Heavenly music is playing in the sky... Heavenly songs are sung in the sky, in homage to the Tathagata. But it is not to this extent that a Tathagata is worshipped, honored, respected, venerated, or paid homage to. Rather, the monk, nun, male lay follower, or female lay follower who keeps practicing the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma, who keeps practicing masterfully, who lives in accordance with the Dhamma: that is the person who worships, honors, respects, venerates, & pays homage to the Tathagata with the highest homage. So you should train yourselves: 'We will keep practicing the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma, we will keep practicing masterfully, we will live in accordance with the Dhamma.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



"Very well, then, headman, I will question you on this matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think: There is the case where a man is one who takes life, steals, indulges in illicit sex; is a liar, one who speaks divisive speech, harsh speech, & idle chatter; is greedy, bears thoughts of ill-will, & holds to wrong views. Then a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world!' What do you think: would that man — because of the prayers, praise, & circumambulation of that great crowd of people — at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world?"

"No, lord."

"Suppose a man were to throw a large boulder into a deep lake of water, and a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart [saying,] 'Rise up, O boulder! Come floating up, O boulder! Come float to the shore, O boulder!' What do you think: would that boulder — because of the prayers, praise, & circumambulation of that great crowd of people — rise up, come floating up, or come float to the shore?"

"No, lord."

"So it is with any man who takes life, steals, indulges in illicit sex; is a liar, one who speaks divisive speech, harsh speech, & idle chatter; is greedy, bears thoughts of ill-will, & holds to wrong views. Even though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart — [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world!' — still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he would reappear in destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell.

"Now what do you think: There is the case where a man is one who refrains from taking life, from stealing, & from indulging in illicit sex; he refrains from lying, from speaking divisive speech, from harsh speech, & from idle chatter; he is not greedy, bears no thoughts of ill-will, & holds to right view. Then a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell!' What do you think: would that man — because of the prayers, praise, & circumambulation of that great crowd of people — at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell?"

"No, lord."

"Suppose a man were to throw a jar of ghee or a jar of oil into a deep lake of water, where it would break. There the shards & jar-fragments would go down, while the ghee or oil would come up. Then a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart [saying,] 'Sink, O ghee/oil! Submerge, O ghee/oil! Go down, O ghee/oil!' What do you think: would that ghee/oil, because of the prayers, praise, & circumambulation of that great crowd of people sink, submerge, or go down?"

"No, lord."

"So it is with any man who refrains from taking life, from stealing, & from indulging in illicit sex; refrains from lying, from speaking divisive speech, from harsh speech, & from idle chatter; is not greedy, bears no thoughts of ill-will, & holds to right view. Even though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart — [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell!' — still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he would reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



"Ananda, every precept & practice, every life, every holy life that is followed as of essential worth: is every one of them fruitful?"

"Lord, that is not [to be answered] with a categorical answer."

"In that case, Ananda, give an analytical answer."

"When — by following a life of precept & practice, a life, a holy life that is followed as of essential worth — one's unskillful mental qualities increase while one's skillful mental qualities decline: that sort of precept & practice, life, holy life that is followed as of essential worth is fruitless. But when — by following a life of precept & practice, a life, a holy life that is followed as of essential worth — one's unskillful mental qualities decline while one's skillful mental qualities increase: that sort of precept & practice, life, holy life that is followed as of essential worth is fruitful."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

chownah
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Postby chownah » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:52 pm

This is an interesting example from the previous post:
"Suppose a man were to throw a large boulder into a deep lake of water, and a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart [saying,] 'Rise up, O boulder! Come floating up, O boulder! Come float to the shore, O boulder!' What do you think: would that boulder — because of the prayers, praise, & circumambulation of that great crowd of people — rise up, come floating up, or come float to the shore?"

"No, lord."

I'm wondering if "pray" is an adequate translation for whatever the pali word that was used. Would this "praying" be the words 'Rise up, O boulder!......."? Would a better word for this be "entreat".....or perhaps the "praying" is some other sort of verbalisation done internally?....or something else?

It is very easy to just skim over the word "pray" and assume that I know what it means but if I don't neglect discernment I find that it is not at all clear just exactly what "pray" means in many situations.....at least that is what I see in my experience.
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Postby Buddha Vacana » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:47 pm

CPD:
anu-parisakkati, pr. 3 sg. [sa. *anu + pari +
√ṣvaṣk with var. √ṣvakk, sa-Dhātup § 4,26], to go
round about, to escort; pot. 3 sg. ~eyya, SN IV 312,18
foll. (āyāceyya thomeyya pañjaliko ~; = anu-
parigaccheyya, Spk).

As often, the meaning is not completely clear, and an ad hoc translation is given. Praying seems to be a natural choice given the fact that this is exactly what is done next.

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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Postby chownah » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:38 am

Buddha Vacana wrote:CPD:
anu-parisakkati, pr. 3 sg. [sa. *anu + pari +
√ṣvaṣk with var. √ṣvakk, sa-Dhātup § 4,26], to go
round about, to escort; pot. 3 sg. ~eyya, SN IV 312,18
foll. (āyāceyya thomeyya pañjaliko ~; = anu-
parigaccheyya, Spk).

As often, the meaning is not completely clear, and an ad hoc translation is given. Praying seems to be a natural choice given the fact that this is exactly what is done next.

The pali word with translation you bring seems to be the pali word which is translated as "circumambulate". I don't see anything in the definition given for this pali word which would indicate "praying". So far it seems to me that "circumambulate" is probably a good translation and it also seems to me that "entreat" or perhaps "command" is pertinent based on the 'Rise up, O boulder!.......' as given in the text. But so far I see nothing to indicate that there is some activity which we would call "praying" going on unless one considers that entreating is the same as praying.
I'm not trying to argue about this. I'm just wanting to see whether praying (whatever people might consider that to be) is called out in the pali text.
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Postby Buddha Vacana » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:51 am

Quite right. My mistake. So here it is in greater details:

āyāceyya thomeyya pañjaliko anuparisakkeyya
they would send up prayers and recite praise and circumambulate him making reverential salutations, [saying]:


From CPD:
āyācati, pr. 3 sg. [ts.], (opp. oyācati q. v.);
Kern, Toev. 197; (a) to implore, supplicate, invoke
(a deity); Sadd 338,24; pr. 3 sg. atha Sakko devānam
indo tassa kulassa anukampāya taṁ devaputtaṁ
~ati, Mil 129,17/.; tasmā so Brahma sabbesaṁ
tathāgatānaṁ ~ati dhamma-desanāya, Mil 234,25;
3 pl. yato ca candima-suriyā uggacchanti yattha
ca ogacchanti ~anti thomayanti pañjalikā namas-
samānā anuparivattanti, D I 240,8 (Ct.: ~antī ti
udehi bhagavā canda, udehi suriyā ti evam ~anti,
Sv 402,13); yass' añjaliṁ karitvāna ~anti sadevakā,
tena puññaṁ anubhonti, ko disvā na ppasīdati, Ap
410,22; opt. 3 sg. taṁ enaṁ mahājanakāyo saṅ-
gamma samāgamma ~eyya thomeyya, S IV 312,18;
(b) to beseech a blessing, to invoke success (on somebody);
part. f. gen. pl. assosuṁ bhikkhū . . . ekaccānaṁ
itthīnaṁ ~antīnaṁ, Vin III 137,28; (c) to make a vow
(to a deity); Kern, Toev. I 97; aor. 3 sg. tumhe evaṁ
bheriṁ carāpetha: amhākaṁ rājā uparājakāle yeva
evaṁ ~i, Ja I 260,19; atīte Bārāṇasiyaṁ rañño putto
ekaṁ nigrodharukkhaṁ upasaṅkamitvā tattha nib-
battāya devatāya ~i (v. l.; Ee ~ito), Dhp-a II 14,17;
I sg. balikammaṁ karissāmī ti ~iṁ, Ja I 260,18; Ja
II 117,23; part. med. m. devatāya ~amāno, Ja I 260,15;
(d) to beg, beseech, request, ask, ask for;


PTSD:
Āyācati [ā + yāc, cp. Buddh. Sk. āyācate Divy 1.]

1. to request, beg, implore, pray to (acc.) Vin iii.127; D i.240 PvA 160.

2. to make a vow, to vow, promise A i. 88; J i.169 = v.472; i.260; ii.117.


Thometi [denom. fr. thoma; cp. thavati] to praise, extol, celebrate (often with vaṇṇeti)

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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Postby Buddha Vacana » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:21 am

I think āyācati is pretty close to 'praying'

prayer (prɛə)
n
1. (Ecclesiastical Terms)
a. a personal communication or petition addressed to a deity, esp in the form of supplication, adoration, praise, contrition, or thanksgiving
b. any other form of spiritual communion with a deity


Other instances:

At AN 17.16/17 (23/24 in CDB), a mother makes a request to her son/daughter to become like the chief disciples of the Buddha (in what is presented as a personal request directly addressed to the person), and then expresses the hope that he/she won't meet too many gains, honors and praise along the way (prayer to destiny?)

At AN 2.131-141 and AN 4.176, a person makes the exact same kind of request (i.e. in a nutshell 'may I become like those chief disciples') but this time for themselves (so making the request to themselves? to destiny?)

At AN 5.43, the Buddha explicitly says that prayers are not for noble disciples, they should rather act appropriately:
Then Anathapindika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him: "These five things, householder, are welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world. Which five?

"Long life is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Beauty is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Happiness is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Status is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Rebirth in heaven is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Now, I tell you, these five things are not to be obtained by reason of prayers or wishes. If they were to be obtained by reason of prayers or wishes, who here would lack them? It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires long life to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires long life should follow the path of practice leading to long life. In so doing, he will attain long life, either human or divine.

"It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires beauty to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires beauty should follow the path of practice leading to beauty. In so doing, he will attain beauty, either human or divine.

"It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires happiness to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires happiness should follow the path of practice leading to happiness. In so doing, he will attain happiness, either human or divine.

"It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires status to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires status should follow the path of practice leading to status. In so doing, he will attain status, either human or divine.

"It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires rebirth in heaven to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires rebirth in heaven should follow the path of practice leading to rebirth in heaven. In so doing, he will attain rebirth in heaven."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



Also DN 13 criticizes the Brahmans' habit of praying without taking appropriate action:
'Again, Va̅seṭṭha, if this river Aciravati were full of water to the brim, even overflowing, [16] and a man with business on the other side, bound for the other side, headed for the other side, were to come up and want to cross over. And standing on this bank, he would invoke the further bank saying, "Come here, O further bank! Come over to this side!"'

'Now what do you think, Va̅seṭṭha? Would the further bank of the river Aciravati, by reason of that man's invoking and praying and hoping and praising, come over to this side?'

'Certainly not, Gotama!'

25. 'In just the same way, Va̅seṭṭha, do the Brahmins versed in the Three Vedas, -- omitting the practice of those qualities which really make a man a Brahmin, and adopting the practice of those qualities which really make men non-Brahmins -- say thus: "Indra we call upon, Soma we call upon, Varuna we call upon, Isana we call upon, Pajapati we call upon, Brahma̅ we call upon, [Mahiddhi we call upon, Yama we call upon]!" [17] Va̅seṭṭha, that those Brahmins versed in the Three Vedas, but omitting the practice of those qualities which really make a man a Brahmin, and adopting the practice of those qualities which really make men non-Brahmins -- that they, by reason of their invoking and praying and hoping and praising, should, after death and at the break up of the body, become united with Brahma̅ -- such a thing is impossible! [18]

26. 'Just, Va̅seṭṭha, as if this river Aciravati were full to the brim, even overflowing, and a man with business on the other side, headed for the other side, bound for the other side, were to come up and want to cross over. And on this bank, he were to be tightly bound with his arms behind his back by a strong chain. Now what do you think, Va̅seṭṭha, would that man be able to get over from this bank of the river Aciravati to the further bank?'

'Certainly not, Gotama!'

27. 'In the same way, Va̅seṭṭha, there are five strands of sense desire, which are called in the Discipline of the Noble Ones, a "chain" and a "bond." What are the five?

'Forms perceptible to the eye; desirable, agreeable, pleasant, attractive, that arouse desire and generate delight. Sounds of the same kind perceptible to the ear. Odours of the same kind perceptible to the nose. Tastes of the same kind perceptible to the tongue. Substances of the same kind perceptible to the body by touch. These five strands of sense desire are called, in the Discipline of the Noble Ones, a "chain" and a "bond." And, Va̅seṭṭha, the Brahmins versed in the Three Vedas cling to these five strands of sense desire, they are infatuated with them, attached to them, do not see the danger in them, don't know how unreliable they are, and so they enjoy them. [19]

28. 'And Va̅seṭṭha, that Brahmins versed in the Three Vedas, but omitting the practice of those qualities which really make a man a Brahmin, and adopting the practice of those qualities which really make men non-Brahmins -- clinging to these five strands of sense desire, infatuated by them, attached to them, not seeing their danger, not knowing their unreliability, and so enjoying them -- that these Brahmins should after death, on the dissolution of the body, become united with Brahma̅, -- such a thing is impossible!

29. 'Again, Va̅seṭṭha, if this river Aciravati were full of water even to the brim, and overflowing, and a man with business on the other side, headed for the other side, bound for the other side, were to come up and want to cross over. Suppose he covered himself up with a shawl, even his head, and were to lie down on this bank and go to sleep. Now what do you think, Va̅seṭṭha? Would that man be able to get over from this bank of the river Aciravati to the further bank?'

'Certainly not, Gotama!'

30. 'And in the same way, Va̅seṭṭha, there are these Five Hindrances, in the Discipline of the Noble Ones, which are called "veils," "hindrances," "obstacles," and "entanglements". What are the five?

The hindrance of sensual desire,
The hindrance of ill will,
The hindrance of sloth and torpor,
The hindrance of restlessness and worry,
The hindrance of skeptical doubt.

'These are the Five Hindrances, Va̅seṭṭha, which, in the Discipline of the Noble Ones, are called "veils," "hindrances," "obstacles," and "entanglements".

'Now, Va̅seṭṭha, the Brahmins versed in the Three Vedas are veiled, hindered, obstructed, and entangled by these Five Hindrances.

'And Va̅seṭṭha, that Brahmins versed in the Three Vedas, but omitting the practice of those qualities which really make a man a Brahmin, and adopting the practice of those qualities which really make men non-Brahmins -- veiled, hindered, obstructed, and entangled by these Five Hindrances -- that these Brahmins should after death, on the dissolution of the body, become united with Brahma̅ -- such a thing is impossible!
http://www.leighb.com/dn13.htm

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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Postby Mohan Gnanathilake » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:32 am

thepea wrote:
Mohan Gnanathilake wrote:When Theravada Buddhists pay respect to the Buddha statue they do not pray to a Buddha in heaven, since the Buddha passed away completely. Theravada Buddhists pay respect to the Buddha statue because they think with deep reverence and gratefulness of his virtues: of his wisdom, his purity and his compassion.

Are you saying paying respect to Buddha statue is prayer?


No, I am not saying paying respect to Buddha statue is prayer. Prayer is conversation with God.
All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with impure mind pain follows him like the wheel the hoof of the ox.
(Dhammapada 1, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)

All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind –made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind happiness follows him like one’s shadow that never leaves.
(Dhammapada 2, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)

Mr.Mohan Barathi Gnanathilake
Permanent Address : No. 372 / 2 , Mahara Prison Road , Ragama, Sri Lanka.
Telephone No :+94 112957857
Email :moh.bar.gna1975@gmail.com

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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Postby thepea » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:05 am

Mohan Gnanathilake wrote:
No, I am not saying paying respect to Buddha statue is prayer. Prayer is conversation with God.

I agree prayer is conversation with god. This communication is occurring continuously whether we are aware of this or not. Constant liking and disliking is occurring from moment to moment. Cravings for this and aversion to that and god is continuously answering this cravings and aversions. The goal is unification with god, the realization one is not separate from god but is god and communication is free from craving and aversion. No asking for this to be different than it is but mere acceptance of this moment as it is. True loving kindness.

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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Postby befriend » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:30 pm

how do you pray to god if you don't mind me asking? How do you define God? This could help people with giving you a more specialized response.
nothing can destroy a man who has lived a pure life

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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Postby thepea » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:41 pm

befriend wrote:how do you pray to god if you don't mind me asking?

By craving and aversion.

befriend wrote:How do you define God?

Ultimate truth.

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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Postby theY » Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:55 pm

Theravada-buddhism don't have praying to honeyed someone.

We have only memorization, to change mind's arising step. Memorization will practice memorizer's behavior.

But when memorizer already is arahanta, memorization of him will keep buddhism go on until 5,000 years of buddhism.
Last edited by theY on Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/2016/09/tipitaka-memorization-is-rule-of-monks.html

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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Postby bodom » Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:09 pm

This was the Buddhas advice regarding prayer:

Then Anathapindika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him: "These five things, householder, are welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world. Which five?

"Long life is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Beauty is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Happiness is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Status is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Rebirth in heaven is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Now, I tell you, these five things are not to be obtained by reason of prayers or wishes. If they were to be obtained by reason of prayers or wishes, who here would lack them? It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires long life to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires long life should follow the path of practice leading to long life. In so doing, he will attain long life, either human or divine.

"It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires beauty to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires beauty should follow the path of practice leading to beauty. In so doing, he will attain beauty, either human or divine.

"It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires happiness to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires happiness should follow the path of practice leading to happiness. In so doing, he will attain happiness, either human or divine.

"It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires status to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires status should follow the path of practice leading to status. In so doing, he will attain status, either human or divine.

"It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires rebirth in heaven to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires rebirth in heaven should follow the path of practice leading to rebirth in heaven. In so doing, he will attain rebirth in heaven."


Long life, beauty, status, honor,
heaven, high birth:
To those who delight
in aspiring for these things
in great measure, continuously,
the wise praise heedfulness
in making merit.

The wise person, heedful,
acquires a two-fold welfare:
welfare in this life &
welfare in the next.
By breaking through to his welfare
he's called prudent,
wise.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo

thepea
Posts: 628
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Postby thepea » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:57 pm

So,
Big no to praying in Buddhism.

It seems the practice is to come out of prayers.

Even in meta practice may all beings be happy. there does not seem a wish for this more like a general statement. May I be well peaceful and happy, not a desire for this but a statement to observe.
Does this seem correct or are we to wish for others happiness and peace?

User avatar
ganegaar
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:01 am
Location: Stockholm

Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Postby ganegaar » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:21 am

Execuse me readers, for going off-topic here, but I felt I should comment about following never the less.

davidbrainerd wrote:
Adamantus wrote:

So can I be Buddhist and still pray to god or do I have to give up on Buddhism :(

:juggling:


I would also say I'm not actually aware of a text where Buddha says there is no creator God,


Well, in fact, Buddha did say there is a being, who calls himself a creator God!


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.01.0.bodh.html
40. "But sooner or later, bhikkhus, after the lapse of a long period, there comes a time when this world begins to expand once again. While the world is expanding, an empty palace of Brahmā appears. Then a certain being, due to the exhaustion of his life-span or the exhaustion of his merit, passes away from the Ābhassara plane and re-arises in the empty palace of Brahmā. There he dwells, mind made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the air, abiding in glory. And he continues thus for a long, long period of time.

41. "Then, as a result of dwelling there all alone for so long a time, there arises in him dissatisfaction and agitation, (and he yearns): 'Oh, that other beings might come to this place!' Just at that moment, due to the exhaustion of their life-span or the exhaustion of their merit, certain other beings pass away from the Ābhassara plane and re-arise in the palace of Brahmā, in companionship with him. There they dwell, mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the air, abiding in glory. And they continue thus for a long, long period of time.

42. "Thereupon the being who re-arose there first thinks to himself: 'I am Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Vanquisher, the Unvanquished, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Supreme Being, the Ordainer, the Almighty, the Father of all that are and are to be. And these beings have been created by me. What is the reason? Because first I made the wish: "Oh, that other beings might come to this place!" And after I made this resolution, now these beings have come.'

"And the beings who re-arose there after him also think: 'This must be Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Vanquisher, the Unvanquished, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Supreme Being, the Ordainer, the Almighty, the Father of all that are and are to be. And we have been created by him. What is the reason? Because we see that he was here first, and we appeared here after him.'
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.


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