Core teaching of the Buddha

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
lostitude
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by lostitude » Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:47 pm

samseva wrote: Actually, Christians do not believe in rebirth nor reincarnation, and Hindus only believe in reincarnation. Only Buddhists believe in rebirth.
Christians do have reincarnation. They die, their body turns to dust, then they rise again in the afterlife, in their newly re-created body. They call it 'resurrection of the flesh'.

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samseva
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by samseva » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:01 pm

lostitude wrote:
samseva wrote: Actually, Christians do not believe in rebirth nor reincarnation, and Hindus only believe in reincarnation. Only Buddhists believe in rebirth.
Christians do have reincarnation. They die, their body turns to dust, then they rise again in the afterlife, in their newly re-created body. They call it 'resurrection of the flesh'.
Jesus apparently came back to life and so will all who have died when he returns, but this is resurrection and the great resurrection.
Though the major Christian denominations reject the concept of reincarnation, a large number of Christians profess the belief. [...] In a 1981 Survey in Europe 31% of regular churchgoing Catholics expressed a belief in reincarnation.[145]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarna ... ristianity

terryshine
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by terryshine » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:21 pm

kirk5a wrote:
terryshine wrote:I'm not sure you will find any great difference between one bod and another. We all have sankharas arising and passing. See yourself and you see others inc the Buddha, who also operates in the same way.

Though well done Kirk5a Either you have attained or have gained psychic powers. May I offer my congratulations.
Incorrect assumption.

The Buddha did in fact encourage reflections (not "speculations") about past and future births. See for example Assu Sutta: Tears SN 15.3.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
By "incorrect assumption" did you mean my first or second paragraph

terryshine
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by terryshine » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:31 pm

lostitude wrote:Yet he does say in a somewhat authoritative formulation something along the lines of 'many monks have got an incorrect understanding of rebirth and assume it spreads over several lives'. Can this really just be his personal opinion? He certainly doesn't make it sound like that.
Glad you picked up on that lostitude. The buddhas rebirth consists of arising and passing sankharas. These are units of consciousness normally not seen. Bit like watching a movie. The movie is samsara, but sharpening the mindfulness up one can catch up with the speed and see the units.

terryshine
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by terryshine » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:35 pm

Meggo wrote:@terryshine

It is from page 38. I can't copy the books content directly.
On page 40 he says nirvana is a "sublime state of being"...
Also there is a lot of talk of "purifying" the mind and silence as an attribute of enlightenment.

What do you mean with explain the meaning? Isn't the meaning obvious? He understands nibbana not as an insight but as a new mind state, consisting of a perception of a vast awareness, perception of oneness, perception of silence, perception of sublime vs. gross, perception of being. There is a lot of special experience vs. experience which is not so special, arising and vanishing in a relation of duality to this big awareness.
You mention the page numbers but not the name of the book!
Nibana is not a state of mind. its whats left after the defilement's are dealt with.

terryshine
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by terryshine » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:38 pm

dhammacoustic wrote:
terryshine wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote: It is not speculation, it is what the Buddha said.


:anjali:
Its not what the Buddha said its what the books say the Buddha said.

terryshine
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by terryshine » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:47 pm

Mkoll wrote:
lostitude wrote:Yet he does say in a somewhat authoritative formulation something along the lines of 'many monks have got an incorrect understanding of rebirth and assume it spreads over several lives'. Can this really just be his personal opinion? He certainly doesn't make it sound like that.
He says that he could be wrong and these views are based on his own understanding in another part of his writing:
They use this idea of rebirth to explain child prodigies and children who can recall past lives. I could be wrong, of course, but I feel the Buddha meant something quite different.

[...]

From my own experience, insight and understanding, I feel that when the Buddha spoke of rebirth he was actually referring to a psychological phenomenon as opposed to a physical one, viz. mental rebirth—i.e., the repeated arising of the self/ego-center out of ignorance and delusion, craving and clinging, hatred and ill-will.
Many teachers say that to cover all eventualities. That which you don't see cannot be known. What he does see though is arising and passing of sankharas which would be the Buddhas teaching on rebirth.

terryshine
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by terryshine » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:53 pm

samseva wrote:
terryshine wrote: It is completely the opposite. If there is rebirth, it is therefore important to develop the path as to reach Nibbāna in this life or the next. If there is no rebirth, what is the point of reaching Nibbāna, other than to feel really blissful?
I'm sorry samseva but your above quote shows a total lack of Buddhist theory and especially practice to the point where its not worth discussing anything with you.

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samseva
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by samseva » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:36 pm

terryshine wrote:I'm sorry samseva but your above quote shows a total lack of Buddhist theory and especially practice to the point where its not worth discussing anything with you.
If you could explain why this is so, we could discuss it, but I guess opting for an argumentum ad lapidem and an argumentum ad hominem proves your all too great knowledge.

thepea
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by thepea » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:58 pm

dhammacoustic wrote:This is not the core teaching of the Buddha, these are his own views.

He rejects kamma and rebirth, hence sotāpatti, that's all, he's one of those natthattā-annihilationists.

:anjali:
I had the opportunity to spend six months with Bhante Kovida a few years ago. He is much different than the strict Sri Lankan Theravaden monks that usually come to visit. He is very outspoken where the other monks are somewhat subdued. He did push his book on me quite a bit, which in the end was a red flag. He would often complain of the food, not a fan of Sri Lanken cuisine. He exercised a lot and taught qui gong. He played many non Buddhist spiritual teachings during his weekly one day retreats. In the end I got the feeling he was not a typical theravaden monk, in fact I feel he is more of a drifter, wandering into monasteries, but playing by his own set of rules. He ran weekly retreats trying with great desperation to generate dana offerings of which he had no trouble handling the money. He was always pushing his book in hopes of getting a donation.
At first I really liked what he had to say, but in the end he seemed to be suffering a great deal, and not all that liberated. I never got around to reading his book.

terryshine
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by terryshine » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:14 am

terryshine wrote:
samseva wrote:
terryshine wrote: It is completely the opposite. If there is rebirth, it is therefore important to develop the path as to reach Nibbāna in this life or the next. If there is no rebirth, what is the point of reaching Nibbāna, other than to feel really blissful?
Well I'll go to the pub and have a pint and do it in my next life!!! That's the problem with belief in lifetimes. Get on your but and do it now.
As your on the internet may I suggest you check out what nibbana is or rather is'nt. Its nothing like blissful. Sukha or jhanas are blissful.

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samseva
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by samseva » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:24 am

terryshine wrote:As your on the internet may I suggest you check out what nibbana is or rather is'nt. Its nothing like blissful. Sukha or jhanas are blissful.
You're more knowledgable than Bhikkhu Bodhi I presume?
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:To correct this one sided view, the Buddha also describes Nibbana in positive terms. He refers to Nibbana as the supreme happiness, perfect bliss, peace, serenity, liberation, freedom.
Source
terryshine wrote:Well I'll go to the pub and have a pint and do it in my next life!!! That's the problem with belief in lifetimes. Get on your but and do it now.
No, it is only a problem for those who misunderstand rebirth and other Buddhist teachings.

Meggo
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by Meggo » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:14 am

terryshine wrote: You mention the page numbers but not the name of the book!
Nibana is not a state of mind. its whats left after the defilement's are dealt with.
An Inquiring Mind's Journey, Bhante Kovida
The book your link is pointing to.
If Nibbana would just be what is left when there are no defilements, then the experience of a jhana would be the same as nibbana..

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dhammacoustic
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by dhammacoustic » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:09 pm

terryshine wrote:Its not what the Buddha said its what the books say the Buddha said.
What book? I posted a quote from a sutta. You also reject the suttas then?

:anjali:
Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

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dhammacoustic
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by dhammacoustic » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:13 pm

thepea wrote:At first I really liked what he had to say, but in the end he seemed to be suffering a great deal, and not all that liberated. I never got around to reading his book.
Hi thepea, I don't think his teachings are in line with true Buddhism, some people might think otherwise of course.

:anjali:
Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

terryshine
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by terryshine » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:25 pm

Meggo wrote:
terryshine wrote: You mention the page numbers but not the name of the book!
Nibana is not a state of mind. its whats left after the defilement's are dealt with.
An Inquiring Mind's Journey, Bhante Kovida
The book your link is pointing to.
If Nibbana would just be what is left when there are no defilements, then the experience of a jhana would be the same as nibbana..
Having attained a stage of nibbana, that stays and has a considerable lasting effect on mind and body. Jhanas are very impermanent.

Meggo
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by Meggo » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:39 pm

terryshine wrote: Having attained a stage of nibbana, that stays and has a considerable lasting effect on mind and body. Jhanas are very impermanent.
So, actually you are saying that nibbana is like jhana, only a permanent form, right?

terryshine
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by terryshine » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:42 pm

Meggo wrote:
terryshine wrote: Having attained a stage of nibbana, that stays and has a considerable lasting effect on mind and body. Jhanas are very impermanent.
So, actually you are saying that nibbana is like jhana, only a permanent form, right?
I think we are getting down to knit picking here, rather more trying a form of intellectual brinkmanship. Not really a discussion.
I posted the book so that some may gain knowledge if they wish. It’s not the norm book on Buddhism its Kovida’s opinion of what he has discovered in his medative practice. Other people have the same ideas, such as Buddhadassa. Naturally when people stick their head out of the norm they get rocks tossed at them!

Those who declared the world was not flat had the same treatment as did galileo (in spades)! The rock tossers are those, as in this case, that that read books, accept that all the information is correct, lock stock and barrel, even when it’s far beyond their medative ability to really know.

If someone disagrees they do their best to try to outwit them and make them look foolish, so they can feel comfortable in their wonderful achievement. This is not very progressive or explorative. Better to break through the cognitive dissonance and try to think outside the box for their own and others benefit.

thepea
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by thepea » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:17 pm

dhammacoustic wrote:
Hi thepea, I don't think his teachings are in line with true Buddhism, some people might think otherwise of course.
I don't think his teachings and lifestyle are in line with Theravaden Buddhism, from what I witnessed I believe he would be declared defeated as a monk. As far as true Buddhism, I can't speak to that, there are so many different traditions, Zen, Mahayana, etc... He struck me as more of a Mahayana practicioner as opposed to Theravaden. He certainly has his own thing going on.


terryshine wrote: It’s not the norm book on Buddhism its Kovida’s opinion of what he has discovered in his medative practice. Other people have the same ideas, such as Buddhadassa. Naturally when people stick their head out of the norm they get rocks tossed at them!
I hope you don't feel I'm throwing rocks at him, I'm sure he has had some benefits from his practice. As I said I initially I really liked what he had to say, but saying and then doing are two different things. I simply observed a lot of suffering coming from him, and this had an effect on how I perceived his teachings. Towards the end of his 6 month commitment he was simply itching to get out of there.

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kirk5a
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by kirk5a » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:13 pm

terryshine wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
terryshine wrote:I'm not sure you will find any great difference between one bod and another. We all have sankharas arising and passing. See yourself and you see others inc the Buddha, who also operates in the same way.

Though well done Kirk5a Either you have attained or have gained psychic powers. May I offer my congratulations.
Incorrect assumption.

The Buddha did in fact encourage reflections (not "speculations") about past and future births. See for example Assu Sutta: Tears SN 15.3.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
By "incorrect assumption" did you mean my first or second paragraph
Second, I don't have psychic powers.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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