Core teaching of the Buddha

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
terryshine
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by terryshine » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:14 am

terryshine wrote:
samseva wrote:
terryshine wrote: It is completely the opposite. If there is rebirth, it is therefore important to develop the path as to reach Nibbāna in this life or the next. If there is no rebirth, what is the point of reaching Nibbāna, other than to feel really blissful?
Well I'll go to the pub and have a pint and do it in my next life!!! That's the problem with belief in lifetimes. Get on your but and do it now.
As your on the internet may I suggest you check out what nibbana is or rather is'nt. Its nothing like blissful. Sukha or jhanas are blissful.

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samseva
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by samseva » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:24 am

terryshine wrote:As your on the internet may I suggest you check out what nibbana is or rather is'nt. Its nothing like blissful. Sukha or jhanas are blissful.
You're more knowledgable than Bhikkhu Bodhi I presume?
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:To correct this one sided view, the Buddha also describes Nibbana in positive terms. He refers to Nibbana as the supreme happiness, perfect bliss, peace, serenity, liberation, freedom.
Source
terryshine wrote:Well I'll go to the pub and have a pint and do it in my next life!!! That's the problem with belief in lifetimes. Get on your but and do it now.
No, it is only a problem for those who misunderstand rebirth and other Buddhist teachings.

Meggo
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by Meggo » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:14 am

terryshine wrote: You mention the page numbers but not the name of the book!
Nibana is not a state of mind. its whats left after the defilement's are dealt with.
An Inquiring Mind's Journey, Bhante Kovida
The book your link is pointing to.
If Nibbana would just be what is left when there are no defilements, then the experience of a jhana would be the same as nibbana..

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dhammacoustic
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by dhammacoustic » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:09 pm

terryshine wrote:Its not what the Buddha said its what the books say the Buddha said.
What book? I posted a quote from a sutta. You also reject the suttas then?

:anjali:
Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

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dhammacoustic
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by dhammacoustic » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:13 pm

thepea wrote:At first I really liked what he had to say, but in the end he seemed to be suffering a great deal, and not all that liberated. I never got around to reading his book.
Hi thepea, I don't think his teachings are in line with true Buddhism, some people might think otherwise of course.

:anjali:
Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

terryshine
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by terryshine » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:25 pm

Meggo wrote:
terryshine wrote: You mention the page numbers but not the name of the book!
Nibana is not a state of mind. its whats left after the defilement's are dealt with.
An Inquiring Mind's Journey, Bhante Kovida
The book your link is pointing to.
If Nibbana would just be what is left when there are no defilements, then the experience of a jhana would be the same as nibbana..
Having attained a stage of nibbana, that stays and has a considerable lasting effect on mind and body. Jhanas are very impermanent.

Meggo
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by Meggo » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:39 pm

terryshine wrote: Having attained a stage of nibbana, that stays and has a considerable lasting effect on mind and body. Jhanas are very impermanent.
So, actually you are saying that nibbana is like jhana, only a permanent form, right?

terryshine
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by terryshine » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:42 pm

Meggo wrote:
terryshine wrote: Having attained a stage of nibbana, that stays and has a considerable lasting effect on mind and body. Jhanas are very impermanent.
So, actually you are saying that nibbana is like jhana, only a permanent form, right?
I think we are getting down to knit picking here, rather more trying a form of intellectual brinkmanship. Not really a discussion.
I posted the book so that some may gain knowledge if they wish. It’s not the norm book on Buddhism its Kovida’s opinion of what he has discovered in his medative practice. Other people have the same ideas, such as Buddhadassa. Naturally when people stick their head out of the norm they get rocks tossed at them!

Those who declared the world was not flat had the same treatment as did galileo (in spades)! The rock tossers are those, as in this case, that that read books, accept that all the information is correct, lock stock and barrel, even when it’s far beyond their medative ability to really know.

If someone disagrees they do their best to try to outwit them and make them look foolish, so they can feel comfortable in their wonderful achievement. This is not very progressive or explorative. Better to break through the cognitive dissonance and try to think outside the box for their own and others benefit.

thepea
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by thepea » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:17 pm

dhammacoustic wrote:
Hi thepea, I don't think his teachings are in line with true Buddhism, some people might think otherwise of course.
I don't think his teachings and lifestyle are in line with Theravaden Buddhism, from what I witnessed I believe he would be declared defeated as a monk. As far as true Buddhism, I can't speak to that, there are so many different traditions, Zen, Mahayana, etc... He struck me as more of a Mahayana practicioner as opposed to Theravaden. He certainly has his own thing going on.


terryshine wrote: It’s not the norm book on Buddhism its Kovida’s opinion of what he has discovered in his medative practice. Other people have the same ideas, such as Buddhadassa. Naturally when people stick their head out of the norm they get rocks tossed at them!
I hope you don't feel I'm throwing rocks at him, I'm sure he has had some benefits from his practice. As I said I initially I really liked what he had to say, but saying and then doing are two different things. I simply observed a lot of suffering coming from him, and this had an effect on how I perceived his teachings. Towards the end of his 6 month commitment he was simply itching to get out of there.

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kirk5a
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by kirk5a » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:13 pm

terryshine wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
terryshine wrote:I'm not sure you will find any great difference between one bod and another. We all have sankharas arising and passing. See yourself and you see others inc the Buddha, who also operates in the same way.

Though well done Kirk5a Either you have attained or have gained psychic powers. May I offer my congratulations.
Incorrect assumption.

The Buddha did in fact encourage reflections (not "speculations") about past and future births. See for example Assu Sutta: Tears SN 15.3.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
By "incorrect assumption" did you mean my first or second paragraph
Second, I don't have psychic powers.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

terryshine
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by terryshine » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:32 pm

thepea wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:
Hi thepea, I don't think his teachings are in line with true Buddhism, some people might think otherwise of course.
I don't think his teachings and lifestyle are in line with Theravaden Buddhism, from what I witnessed I believe he would be declared defeated as a monk. As far as true Buddhism, I can't speak to that, there are so many different traditions, Zen, Mahayana, etc... He struck me as more of a Mahayana practicioner as opposed to Theravaden. He certainly has his own thing going on.


terryshine wrote: It’s not the norm book on Buddhism its Kovida’s opinion of what he has discovered in his medative practice. Other people have the same ideas, such as Buddhadassa. Naturally when people stick their head out of the norm they get rocks tossed at them!
I hope you don't feel I'm throwing rocks at him, I'm sure he has had some benefits from his practice. As I said I initially I really liked what he had to say, but saying and then doing are two different things. I simply observed a lot of suffering coming from him, and this had an effect on how I perceived his teachings. Towards the end of his 6 month commitment he was simply itching to get out of there.
In essence Thepia the Buddha’s teachings of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and non-self are the wonderful gift he discovered and bestowed on this world. Any teaching of these three marks of existence is Buddhism no matter what label or lineage it’s called.

The fact that he carries money for instance is against the vinaya. I personally find this somewhat abhorrent but virtually all Asian monks do so. Most of the Western monks as far as I know do not carry money though sometimes I guess they need to when traveling for instance and nobody around to buy a ticket.

You may well have observed him suffering. Few people nowadays will attain Arahatship instantly! So take the case of a Sotapanna who has only (only!) seen non self. They are still stuffed with hatred and craving and other defilements such as restlessness. They then have to deal with these defilements which are strengthened by the level of concentration already attained, this becomes a very emotive and difficult time for them. Craving and hatred being based on feeling and emotions.

I’m not putting him forward as a Buddha or anything like that, especially as I have never met him. But his book oozes with enthusiasm for attaining knowledge of the three marks – how bad is that?

thepea
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by thepea » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:07 pm

terryshine wrote:
I’m not putting him forward as a Buddha or anything like that, especially as I have never met him.
I didn't assume you were doing this, I'm just giving my account of personally spending time with him.

terryshine wrote: But his book oozes with enthusiasm for attaining knowledge of the three marks – how bad is that?
Like I said I never read his book, I cannot speak of the content. But as a Theravaden monk he should not be pushing a book so that he can continue to travel the world. He is a monastic and is living off the grace of laypersons.
Bhante G has come there a few times and he has written some popular books, and when I interviewed with him he would never say open to chapter 4 in my book, oh here's a copy of my book in case you don't already have one. He was very quiet and would listen and then with few words answer to you.

I'm not saying Bhante Kovida has bad intentions and not to follow his teachings, I'm just saying he did not strike me as traditionally Theravaden or very enlightened, he's a super nice guy but a different kind of monk. Perhaps this is the way monks are in other parts of the world?
I hope he is keeping well wherever he is now. Perhaps he was just really sick of eating Sri Lanken food everyday and perhaps the cold weather was getting to him. Winters can be pretty blah in Canada.

terryshine
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by terryshine » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:38 am

thepea wrote:
terryshine wrote:
I’m not putting him forward as a Buddha or anything like that, especially as I have never met him.
I didn't assume you were doing this, I'm just giving my account of personally spending time with him.

terryshine wrote: But his book oozes with enthusiasm for attaining knowledge of the three marks – how bad is that?
Like I said I never read his book, I cannot speak of the content. But as a Theravaden monk he should not be pushing a book so that he can continue to travel the world. He is a monastic and is living off the grace of laypersons.
Bhante G has come there a few times and he has written some popular books, and when I interviewed with him he would never say open to chapter 4 in my book, oh here's a copy of my book in case you don't already have one. He was very quiet and would listen and then with few words answer to you.

I'm not saying Bhante Kovida has bad intentions and not to follow his teachings, I'm just saying he did not strike me as traditionally Theravaden or very enlightened, he's a super nice guy but a different kind of monk. Perhaps this is the way monks are in other parts of the world?
I hope he is keeping well wherever he is now. Perhaps he was just really sick of eating Sri Lanken food everyday and perhaps the cold weather was getting to him. Winters can be pretty blah in Canada.
How can you tell what an enlightened person looks like or even acts like. We all have preconceived ideas that are not always correct. It may pay dividends to read the book and put aside thoughts of the author.
Just to repeat -
"So take the case of a Sotapanna who has only (only!) seen non self. They are still stuffed with hatred and craving and other defilements such as restlessness. They then have to deal with these defilements which are strengthened by the level of concentration already attained, this becomes a very emotive and difficult time for them. Craving and hatred being based on feeling and emotions".

terryshine
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by terryshine » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:35 pm

terryshine wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
lostitude wrote:Yet he does say in a somewhat authoritative formulation something along the lines of 'many monks have got an incorrect understanding of rebirth and assume it spreads over several lives'. Can this really just be his personal opinion? He certainly doesn't make it sound like that.
He says that he could be wrong and these views are based on his own understanding in another part of his writing:
They use this idea of rebirth to explain child prodigies and children who can recall past lives. I could be wrong, of course, but I feel the Buddha meant something quite different.

[...]

From my own experience, insight and understanding, I feel that when the Buddha spoke of rebirth he was actually referring to a psychological phenomenon as opposed to a physical one, viz. mental rebirth—i.e., the repeated arising of the self/ego-center out of ignorance and delusion, craving and clinging, hatred and ill-will.


May I offer a quote from a friend of mine -

"Karma is the habit patterns formed over the desires of our lifetime, and is one of the conditions that co-arises, with others that depend on it. These dependents start with consciousness (expressly not rebirth consciousness). Consciousness, in the image of the habit patterns, dependently co-arises with the so called “past” causes, which are actually present co-arising habitual conditions. Naturally old habits die hard, so our new choices co-arise based on them. Because these newly co-arisen choices are based in the habits of old, “birth” takes place as the same old type of person (and being born, he must inevitably die). The new choices feed back into karma as conditions, so this whole sorry co-arisen mess is the real meaning of birth and death, or rebirth as it now seems to be called. Everyone is trapped in this Dependent Co-Arising, unless they apply the much maligned mindfulness to the process so as to break it apart, by changing, and then abandoning the old habits.

As Buddhism was absorbed into Indian religion, culminating eventually in Hinduism, somewhere along the line reincarnation and re-birth crept in, and the real Dependent Co-Arising was lost. Tricky guy to follow, that Buddha.........

(with thanks to Dogen and Buddhadasa for this explanation)"

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333
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Re: Core teaching of the Buddha

Post by 333 » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:44 am

"The skillfulness of one's actions in life determine one's destination after death: Dhp 17, Dhp 18, Dhp 240" - cooran
From http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=9609" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; thread

There are many suttas in which the Buddha implicitly states rebirth after death. I'm not sure how denying this is "the core teachings of the Buddha". Do you reject the suttas?

Also, to add something; you stated your purpose for this thread was to provide the book to people interested in it. However, you have been arguing and defending the books contents/author...from my point of view, it looks like you have found your doctrine to believe in and are now very much attached to it.

I may be wrong. I may be out of line. Dont take me too seriously, I'm not enlightened. But as for my question, do you reject the suttas?
To Avoid All Evil,
To Cultivate Only Good,
And To Purify One's Mind
This Is The Teaching Of All The Buddhas!
-Dhammapada 183

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