Does the Tathagata have uncondtional sympathy for all beings?

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seeker242
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Does the Tathagata have uncondtional sympathy for all beings?

Post by seeker242 » Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:46 pm

This discussion came up on another Buddhist forum. I thought I would ask people here about because there seems to be many scholarly people here, who understand the canon well. :)

Does the Tathagata have sympathy for all beings? Unconditionally? What about murderers and rapists? Ones who feel no remorse, at all, for doing all that bad action. They have no regrets, no sympathy, no nothing. They sleep quite well at night, after they just robbed some old lady of all her money. Ones who actually enjoy doing such bad action? Is the Buddha selective with his compassion? With his sympathy? With his pity? Depending on what that particular person has done or not done? Or what they believe or think about their own actions? Where does he draw the line, if any line is drawn?

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Re: Does the Tathagata have uncondtional sympathy for all beings?

Post by Coyote » Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:08 pm

The brahmavihāras are appamaññā, immeasurable. They apply to all beings, even murderers and rapists. But having compassion and sympathy does not mean that all beings are treated the same. The suttas show a wide variety of of ways in which the Buddha teaches people, even to the point of cutting bad people off.

Wishing bad people well and having compassion does not mean wishing that they get away with their crimes or that they should escape punishment - it could mean that one wishes that they refrain from such bad action in the future, so as to escape unpleasant results.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Re: Does the Tathagata have uncondtional sympathy for all beings?

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:48 pm

:goodpost:

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Re: Does the Tathagata have uncondtional sympathy for all beings?

Post by Nicolas » Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:28 pm

Kakacupama Sutta (MN 21) wrote:Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves.

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Re: Does the Tathagata have uncondtional sympathy for all beings?

Post by waterchan » Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:28 pm

Coyote wrote: even to the point of cutting bad people off.
From that sutta:
"If a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then I kill him, Kesi."
And they say the Buddha didn't have a sense of humor. :tongue:

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Re: Does the Tathagata have uncondtional sympathy for all beings?

Post by dhammacoustic » Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:15 pm

The Tathagāta sees a being as an embodiment of ignorance;
SN 23.2, Satta Sutta wrote:I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'
so yes, he has unconditional sympathy for all beings, since he knows the state of non-clinging. Nevertheless, he still despises foolishness.

"If a farer fails to find a better or an equal, steadfast he should fare alone, for there is no fellowship with fools." - Dhp 61

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Re: Does the Tathagata have uncondtional sympathy for all beings?

Post by SarathW » Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:53 pm

waterchan wrote:
Coyote wrote: even to the point of cutting bad people off.
From that sutta:
"If a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then I kill him, Kesi."
And they say the Buddha didn't have a sense of humor. :tongue:
Even if Buddha was to punish a person that way, it was done in the compassion for the person.
There are many cases in Buddhist stories about Buddha's compassion. (Angulimala and Brahamanas on other sects etc.)
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Re: Does the Tathagata have uncondtional sympathy for all beings?

Post by samseva » Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:26 pm

SarathW wrote:Even if Buddha was to punish a person that way, it was done in the compassion for the person.
If you are taking the word 'kill' literally, an Arahant is incapable of taking life. If not, the Buddha did not experience or act out of compassion all the time.

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Re: Does the Tathagata have uncondtional sympathy for all beings?

Post by seeker242 » Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:39 pm

samseva wrote:
SarathW wrote:Even if Buddha was to punish a person that way, it was done in the compassion for the person.
If you are taking the word 'kill' literally, an Arahant is incapable of taking life. If not, the Buddha did not experience or act out of compassion all the time.
I personally don't think he was speaking literally here, but just making a comparison that Kesi the horsetrainer could easily understand. He says:
"It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life. But if a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata doesn't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing.
"Killing him" I think here would mean the Buddha would just ignore them completely. I don't think he would actually put a spear thru the guy's chest. If he were to do that to every untrainable person, he would have to become a mass murderer! :lol:

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Re: Does the Tathagata have uncondtional sympathy for all beings?

Post by DNS » Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:16 pm

Yes, definitely a metaphorical killing. When one is no longer corrigible there is no use in discussing with them about anything. Take for example, moderators of internet forums who try to correct violations of terms of service and when the poster refuses to obey the rules, the poster is banned.

You may have seen in film or tv some traditional cultures where for example a parent starts singing a funeral prayer when their son or daughter is still alive, to signify they are disowning them and no longer see them as alive. It is not a literal killing, just a complete ignoring of the person.

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Re: Does the Tathagata have uncondtional sympathy for all beings?

Post by SarathW » Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:31 pm

"You may have seen in film or tv some traditional cultures where for example a parent starts singing a funeral prayer when their son or daughter is still alive, to signify they are disowning them and no longer see them as alive. It is not a literal killing, just a complete ignoring of the pers...."

======
I haven't came across this before.
Can you give some reference to read or see.
:thanks:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Does the Tathagata have uncondtional sympathy for all beings?

Post by DNS » Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:33 pm



Yussell, played by Neil Diamond announces he is divorcing his Jewish wife and then introduces his girlfriend (a gentile) to his father. His father starts the funeral prayer and tears a piece of his clothing; a Jewish funeral ritual.

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Re: Does the Tathagata have uncondtional sympathy for all beings?

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:16 am

:thanks:
==========
So we tear our garments. This has a dual symbolism. We are recognizing the loss, that our hearts are torn. But ultimately, the body is also only a garment that the soul wears. Death is when we strip off one uniform and take on another. The garment may be torn, but the essence of the person within it is still intact.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... 163/jewish" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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