Hell as a mind moment

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Vanda
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Hell as a mind moment

Post by Vanda » Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:05 pm

[Split from a Discovering Theravada Thread]

Every flash of a moment can give birth to the hell realm. If this moment you are not there, why give it any thought. Why change the moment with any form of desire.
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya

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samseva
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Re: Regarding Unwholesome root- Hatred and Karma

Post by samseva » Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:40 am

Vanda wrote:Every flash of a moment can give birth to the hell realm.
I think this is a little too extreme.

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Vanda
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Re: Regarding Unwholesome root- Hatred and Karma

Post by Vanda » Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:50 am

In what way do you mean? I don't understand. How is Dhamma extreme?
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya

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samseva
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Re: Regarding Unwholesome root- Hatred and Karma

Post by samseva » Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:13 am

Vanda wrote:In what way do you mean? I don't understand. How is Dhamma extreme?
I was referring to 'every flash of a moment giving birth to the hell realm'.

Usually, being reborn in hell is due to highly unwholesome kamma, such as the 5 ānantarika-kamma (the 5 heinous ‘actions with immediate destiny’, which are parricide, matricide, killing an Arahat, wounding a Buddha, creating schism in the monks order). Murder and cruelty are also a cause to be reborn in hell, but a simple 'flash of a moment'—let alone every flash—is a little too extreme.

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Vanda
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Re: Regarding Unwholesome root- Hatred and Karma

Post by Vanda » Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:35 am

Niraya (hell) is a woeful state in which we can be born in to quite easily. Every time we fall victim to craving and clinging another birth occurs at that moment. To recognize how this happens is important, to understand paticcasamuppada is of prime importance. Yes, suffering is extreme, but there is a way that leads us out of suffering which is taught by the Buddha.
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya

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samseva
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Re: Regarding Unwholesome root- Hatred and Karma

Post by samseva » Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:04 am

Vanda wrote:Niraya (hell) is a woeful state in which we can be born in to quite easily. Every time we fall victim to craving and clinging another birth occurs at that moment. To recognize how this happens is important, to understand paticcasamuppada is of prime importance. Yes, suffering is extreme, but there is a way that leads us out of suffering which is taught by the Buddha.
Applying the concept of rebirth to every thought-moment is debatable, as well as hell being a state in which we can easily be reborn in.

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Vanda
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Re: Regarding Unwholesome root- Hatred and Karma

Post by Vanda » Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:44 am

Buddhaghosa’s idea seems debatable. If volitional action (kamma) creates a birth and the person is afflicted by extreme anxiety or agitation then hell is generated in that moment. Each birth of a self can happen in an instant, as the notion of a self arises. "Hell" is a mind state, not some underground dwelling below the earth's surface with little red devils holding pitchforks dancing all around. This is my understanding. Put sati into motion, whether sitting, walking, etc, and see for your self. Watch when the notion of “me” or “mine” arises, when feeling comes about, when feeling turns into craving. Experience is best over speculation.
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya

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Aloka
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by Aloka » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:24 am

"Hell" is a mind state, not some underground dwelling below the earth's surface with little red devils holding pitchforks dancing all around.
Wut?

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waterchan
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Re: Regarding Unwholesome root- Hatred and Karma

Post by waterchan » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:43 pm

Vanda wrote: "Hell" is a mind state, not some underground dwelling below the earth's surface with little red devils holding pitchforks dancing all around.
Are you saying that there is no such thing as a hell realm outside this human state of existence of ours?

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clw_uk
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by clw_uk » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:58 pm

I can see where this is going to go :jedi: :rofl:
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befriend
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by befriend » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:25 pm

preserving the teaching of literal hell is wonderful for taming the wicked and preventing people from commiting suicide.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

santa100
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by santa100 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:33 pm

Vanda wrote:"Hell" is a mind state, not some underground dwelling below the earth's surface with little red devils holding pitchforks dancing all around. This is my understanding.
While a moment-to-moment interpretation of hell realm might be useful for insight practice, the Buddha actually was quite explicit in describing hell as a concrete separate realm just like the human or animal realms. A common stock phrase being used in many suttas:
...it's by reason of un-Dhamma conduct, dissonant conduct that some beings here, with the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell.

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Mr Man
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Re: Regarding Unwholesome root- Hatred and Karma

Post by Mr Man » Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:14 pm

waterchan wrote:
Vanda wrote: "Hell" is a mind state, not some underground dwelling below the earth's surface with little red devils holding pitchforks dancing all around.
Are you saying that there is no such thing as a hell realm outside this human state of existence of ours?
waterchan
Do you think there is an underground dwelling below the earth's surface with little red devils holding pitchforks dancing all around?

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Nicolas
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by Nicolas » Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:24 pm

This is the General Theravada discussion forum.
The Theravada tradition, and all other Buddhist traditions agree that rebirth, kamma, hell realms and other realms all exist. That is right view.

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clw_uk
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by clw_uk » Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:34 pm

Nicolas wrote:This is the General Theravada discussion forum.
The Theravada tradition, and all other Buddhist traditions agree that rebirth, kamma, hell realms and other realms all exist. That is right view.

Yes but the interpretation of those concepts is what differs ;)
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