Vanda wrote: Punabbhava, “re-becoming”, or “rebirth” is very different than reincarnation
Punabbhava (“re-becoming”)
Re: Punabbhava (“re-becoming”)
What does the Tibetan Buddhist Wheel of life have to do with anything ?... particularly as they believe in reincarnation & the OP #1 says :
Re: Punabbhava (“re-becoming”)
That’s from Suan Mokkh, a Thai wat. Yes, Theravada doesn’t traditionally use that diagram, but Dependent Origination has been compared to a wheel in it’s past. In relation to the rebirth of a "self", I just think Bhavacakka, Wheel of Becoming, shows these processes nicely, with paticcasamuppada at its rim. All of the depictions, the three poisons at the center, kamma, the six realms, and the twelve links of dependent origination, illustrate the factors that are involved with rebirth. There is a physical re-becoming with the dissolution of the body, and there is a (re)birth of the self that takes place whenever "self" emerges. Physical re-becoming is just a physical change. Bhavacakka relates to the processes involved in the re-birth of a self.
Last edited by Vanda on Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
Re: Punabbhava (“re-becoming”)
Anyhow paticcasamuppada isn't a circle nor a wheel and there's a big difference, because death is not a condition for birth.Vanda wrote:I just think Bhavacakka, Wheel of Becoming, shows these processes nicely, with paticcasamuppada at its rim.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
Re: Punabbhava (“re-becoming”)
Acinteyyo,
Yes, I know paticcasamuppada, strictly speaking, isn't a circle or a wheel, but it is illustrated sometimes in that way, as with the circle on the outer rim in the above diagram of Bhavacakka. I agree... clinging conditions becoming, becoming conditions birth.
Yes, I know paticcasamuppada, strictly speaking, isn't a circle or a wheel, but it is illustrated sometimes in that way, as with the circle on the outer rim in the above diagram of Bhavacakka. I agree... clinging conditions becoming, becoming conditions birth.
Last edited by Vanda on Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
Re: Punabbhava (“re-becoming”)
Thanks but I was a non-internet, practising Tibetan Buddhist for a long time, and apart from anything else, surely there are said to be 31 realms of existence in Theravada, compared to the 6 in Tibetan Buddhism?Vanda wrote:I just think Bhavacakka, Wheel of Becoming.....
Anyway, here is an interactive Wheel of Life which you might like - -but watch out for naughty Yama, "the monster of impermanence" !
http://www.buddhanet.net/wheel2.htm
Re: Punabbhava (“re-becoming”)
Aloka,
Actually to my understanding there are five realms (with the asuras not being seen as separate from the devas)
http://christophertitmuss.org/blog/the- ... -existence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire_realm
Haven't spent a lot of time reading up in this area though. States of desire are states of desire to me. I see the "deva" state as a negative state. All on the wheel of rebirth is just negative in my mind.
In regards to the 31 planes - Jhanas are included here (a state of total awareness, a collected mind) they are not on the Wheel obviously. I also think the Deva realm gets divided up into more specifics for some reason, but it is still labelled overall as being part of the Sensuous realm (hell realm, animal realm, hungry ghost realm, human realm and asura-deva realm)
Thank you for the link, that is a great link. Nice to just scroll over a depiction and read it.
I esp. like how each realm has the title "The Symbolic Six Worlds".
Actually to my understanding there are five realms (with the asuras not being seen as separate from the devas)
http://christophertitmuss.org/blog/the- ... -existence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire_realm
Haven't spent a lot of time reading up in this area though. States of desire are states of desire to me. I see the "deva" state as a negative state. All on the wheel of rebirth is just negative in my mind.
In regards to the 31 planes - Jhanas are included here (a state of total awareness, a collected mind) they are not on the Wheel obviously. I also think the Deva realm gets divided up into more specifics for some reason, but it is still labelled overall as being part of the Sensuous realm (hell realm, animal realm, hungry ghost realm, human realm and asura-deva realm)
Thank you for the link, that is a great link. Nice to just scroll over a depiction and read it.
I esp. like how each realm has the title "The Symbolic Six Worlds".
Last edited by Vanda on Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:54 pm, edited 6 times in total.
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
Re: Punabbhava (“re-becoming”)
Aloka,
When you said,
"What does the Tibetan Buddhist Wheel of life have to do with anything..."
Here's a little bit of interesting history:
Wheel of Life (Bhavachakra)
This model of Buddhist cosmology, the environment and inhabitants, is based on the Abhidharma literature of the Theravada and Sutrayana vehicles. Within the Vajrayana system various divergent models are presented with the foremost being that of the Kalachakra Tantra.
The early models of the Wheel of Life depict five divisions of beings; gods, humans, animals, ghosts and hell beings. ... In the Himalayas and Tibet both variant models of four, five and six divisions are found and explained according to different Buddhist and artistic traditions.
http://www.himalayanart.org/search/set.cfm?setID=218" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
When you said,
"What does the Tibetan Buddhist Wheel of life have to do with anything..."
Here's a little bit of interesting history:
Wheel of Life (Bhavachakra)
This model of Buddhist cosmology, the environment and inhabitants, is based on the Abhidharma literature of the Theravada and Sutrayana vehicles. Within the Vajrayana system various divergent models are presented with the foremost being that of the Kalachakra Tantra.
The early models of the Wheel of Life depict five divisions of beings; gods, humans, animals, ghosts and hell beings. ... In the Himalayas and Tibet both variant models of four, five and six divisions are found and explained according to different Buddhist and artistic traditions.
http://www.himalayanart.org/search/set.cfm?setID=218" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Vanda on Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
Re: Punabbhava (“re-becoming”)
Hi everyone,
It is interesting that Walpola Rahula, in What the Buddha Taught, says:
"conditioned Genesis should be considered as a circle, and not as a chain."
[page 54]
There is the term 'vatta', circle or round, which is found in the teachings.
Some examples:
“Suppose, bhikkhus, a dog tied up on a leash was bound to a strong post or pillar: it would just keep on running and revolving around that same post or pillar. So too, the uninstructed worldling … regards form as self … feeling as self … perception as self … volitional formations as self … consciousness as self…. He just keeps running and revolving around form, around feeling, around perception, around volitional formations, around consciousness. As he keeps on running and revolving around them, he is not freed from form, not freed from feeling, not freed from perception, not freed from volitional formations, not freed from consciousness. He is not freed from birth, aging, and death; not freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; not freed from suffering, I say.
“But the instructed noble disciple … does not regard form as self … nor feeling as self … nor perception as self … nor volitional formations as self … nor consciousness as self…. He no longer keeps running and revolving around form, around feeling, around perception, around volitional formations, around consciousness. As he no longer keeps running and revolving around them, he is freed from form, freed from feeling, freed from perception, freed from volitional formations, freed from consciousness. He is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say.”
[BB, TCDB, part of SN 22.99 - The Leash - suttacentral.net]
---------------------------------------------------------------
“And whatever ascetics and brahmins, having thus directly known form, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, through revulsion towards form, through its fading away and cessation, are liberated by nonclinging, they are well liberated. Those who are well liberated are consummate ones. As to those consummate ones, there is no round for describing them." [BB, TCDB, part of SN 22.56 - suttacentral.net]
It is clear that 'vatta' as circle or round, can mean the round of rebirth, which is the same as samsara.
Regards, Vincent.
It is interesting that Walpola Rahula, in What the Buddha Taught, says:
"conditioned Genesis should be considered as a circle, and not as a chain."
[page 54]
There is the term 'vatta', circle or round, which is found in the teachings.
Some examples:
“Suppose, bhikkhus, a dog tied up on a leash was bound to a strong post or pillar: it would just keep on running and revolving around that same post or pillar. So too, the uninstructed worldling … regards form as self … feeling as self … perception as self … volitional formations as self … consciousness as self…. He just keeps running and revolving around form, around feeling, around perception, around volitional formations, around consciousness. As he keeps on running and revolving around them, he is not freed from form, not freed from feeling, not freed from perception, not freed from volitional formations, not freed from consciousness. He is not freed from birth, aging, and death; not freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; not freed from suffering, I say.
“But the instructed noble disciple … does not regard form as self … nor feeling as self … nor perception as self … nor volitional formations as self … nor consciousness as self…. He no longer keeps running and revolving around form, around feeling, around perception, around volitional formations, around consciousness. As he no longer keeps running and revolving around them, he is freed from form, freed from feeling, freed from perception, freed from volitional formations, freed from consciousness. He is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say.”
[BB, TCDB, part of SN 22.99 - The Leash - suttacentral.net]
---------------------------------------------------------------
“And whatever ascetics and brahmins, having thus directly known form, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, through revulsion towards form, through its fading away and cessation, are liberated by nonclinging, they are well liberated. Those who are well liberated are consummate ones. As to those consummate ones, there is no round for describing them." [BB, TCDB, part of SN 22.56 - suttacentral.net]
It is clear that 'vatta' as circle or round, can mean the round of rebirth, which is the same as samsara.
Regards, Vincent.
Re: Punabbhava (“re-becoming”)
Hi Vanda,
Christopher Titmus isn't a Tibetan Buddhist teacher, not do I take too much notice of information on internet sites selling thankas, or of Wikipedia for that matter.
The 6 realms mentioned on the site at the link below are:
Devas or gods.
Ashuras or titans (anti-gods, jealous gods, demigods, aka "demons")
Manushyas or humans.
Tiryakas or animals.
Pretas or hungry ghosts.
Narakas or demons (hell beings)
http://www.khandro.net/doctrine_rebirth.htm
However, I'm not interested in having some kind of a competition, because its not of that much interest to me. I have a large original Tibetan thanka painting of the Wheel of Life, showing 6 realms, hanging in front of me on the wall behind my laptop, so you must think whatever you like.
Have a nice day.
Christopher Titmus isn't a Tibetan Buddhist teacher, not do I take too much notice of information on internet sites selling thankas, or of Wikipedia for that matter.
The 6 realms mentioned on the site at the link below are:
Devas or gods.
Ashuras or titans (anti-gods, jealous gods, demigods, aka "demons")
Manushyas or humans.
Tiryakas or animals.
Pretas or hungry ghosts.
Narakas or demons (hell beings)
http://www.khandro.net/doctrine_rebirth.htm
However, I'm not interested in having some kind of a competition, because its not of that much interest to me. I have a large original Tibetan thanka painting of the Wheel of Life, showing 6 realms, hanging in front of me on the wall behind my laptop, so you must think whatever you like.
Have a nice day.
Re: Punabbhava (“re-becoming”)
Aloka,
I just grabbed those two sites because I thought they were succinct and clear in relaying those basics, in regards to the Sensuous realm and Theravada.
If you want a little more depth, beyond an outline -
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What's the competition supposed to be about? I think I missed that part.
Postscript: I think it is completely unimportant if the 6th realm is unified into a fifth (lumped in with asuras) or not. As i said in my other post, states of desire are states of desire to me. I really don't care how they are spliced up.
I just grabbed those two sites because I thought they were succinct and clear in relaying those basics, in regards to the Sensuous realm and Theravada.
If you want a little more depth, beyond an outline -
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What's the competition supposed to be about? I think I missed that part.
Postscript: I think it is completely unimportant if the 6th realm is unified into a fifth (lumped in with asuras) or not. As i said in my other post, states of desire are states of desire to me. I really don't care how they are spliced up.
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
Re: Punabbhava (“re-becoming”)
Vanda wrote:Aloka,
I just grabbed those two sites because I thought they were succinct and clear in relaying those basics, in regards to the Sensuous realm and Theravada.
If you want a little more depth, beyond an outline -
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What's the competition supposed to be about? I think I missed that part.
I think that's called "moving the goal posts" where I come from, lol.
Anyway, I'm going to bed now Vanda, so please don't continue writing any more posts to me.
Goodnight.
Re: Punabbhava (“re-becoming”)
Aloka,
Sorry, I am not familiar with that phrase, "moving the goal posts". I don't know what that means.
Okay, good night. You'll have to explain the goal post and the competition, some other time.
Sleep well
Sorry, I am not familiar with that phrase, "moving the goal posts". I don't know what that means.
Okay, good night. You'll have to explain the goal post and the competition, some other time.
Sleep well
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
Re: Punabbhava (“re-becoming”)
Aloka,
In case you misunderstood me, in case you feel there was "competition", of thinking one is right or wrong, regarding how the sensual realms are laid out, that was not my intent. I only was giving information about how it is presented in Theravada because I thought that was the question being asked.
You initially wrote: “I was a non-internet, practising Tibetan Buddhist for a long time, and apart from anything else, surely there are said to be 31 realms of existence in Theravada, compared to the 6 in Tibetan Buddhism?”
Then... I just went on to explain the 5 sensuous realms as seen in Theravada (compared to the 6 in Vajrayana) based on my understanding of it.
As for my post on the history (“a little bit of interesting history”), I just meant that it may be a Buddhist idea in general, not belonging to any one school (Theravada, Vajrayana, etc). That it sounds like we might all share in that same history.
I am sorry if I caused any offense or if I expressed myself poorly in doing this.
In case you misunderstood me, in case you feel there was "competition", of thinking one is right or wrong, regarding how the sensual realms are laid out, that was not my intent. I only was giving information about how it is presented in Theravada because I thought that was the question being asked.
You initially wrote: “I was a non-internet, practising Tibetan Buddhist for a long time, and apart from anything else, surely there are said to be 31 realms of existence in Theravada, compared to the 6 in Tibetan Buddhism?”
Then... I just went on to explain the 5 sensuous realms as seen in Theravada (compared to the 6 in Vajrayana) based on my understanding of it.
As for my post on the history (“a little bit of interesting history”), I just meant that it may be a Buddhist idea in general, not belonging to any one school (Theravada, Vajrayana, etc). That it sounds like we might all share in that same history.
I am sorry if I caused any offense or if I expressed myself poorly in doing this.
Last edited by Vanda on Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
Re: Punabbhava (“re-becoming”)
No worries, Vanda, I'm definately not offended. Hope you have a good weekendVanda wrote: I am sorry if I caused any offense or if I expressed myself poorly in doing this.
Re: Punabbhava (“re-becoming”)
Aloka,
I am glad to hear that. Hope you have a good weekend too
ไหว้
I am glad to hear that. Hope you have a good weekend too
ไหว้
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya