The right Right View

[Dan74]

I agree! My point was simply to introduce an obvious caveat - like in the better known case of buyer beware, the buyer often doesn't even know what to beware of, let alone how to discern what is and isn't going to help him/her towards liberation. Study can go some way to ameliorate that, and as you say, trusting one's judgment and instincts. But I've heard too many stories to mention, of people who stayed at a temple/centre even despite their misgivings , and discovered exactly what they needed. Which is often very different to what they wanted.

So what are we to do? We need to make choices, but the proof as they say is in the pudding. So putting those choices to work and reaping the results is the best testimony, IMO. While debates on fora can be useful but are far from conclusive.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Dan,

Well said.

"When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them."

Metta,
Retro.

[mikenz66]

As I understand it, most teachers teach a strict method which doesn't advise to read books, or to actively think about Dhamma.

Which teachers are these? None of the teachers commonly mentioned on this Forum do that, as far as I can remember.

However, most teachers would discourage students from reading books, or have academic discussions, during a meditation retreat, where they are trying to deepen mindfulness and concentration. That doesn't mean that Dhamma is not involved, either in the form of background knowledge from previous learning, lectures during the retreat, or discussions between the students and teachers.


Mike

If those teachers have separate sessions for study, then I made a mistake.

Since you haven't identified any teachers, it's hard to comment further. I can't think of any retreat I've been to (apart from "self-retreats" where I just go and stay at the monastery and check in with one of the monks every day or so) where there wasn't some presentation of Dhamma. That includes Goenka retreats, retreats by Ajhan Chah students, retreats by students of Mahasi, retreats by lay insight teachers.


Mike

[tiltbillings]

You know that your right view is the right view because it leads you to jhana

The attainment of jhana is not dependent upon Right View.

[dhammarelax]

You know that your right view is the right view because it leads you to jhana

The attainment of jhana is not dependent upon Right View.

MN 117 seems to indicate otherwise:

"Bhikkus, I shall teach you noble right concentration with its supports and requisites"

Ever since right view is portrayed as a requisite for right concentration it seems correct to assert that that jhana is dependent upon Right View, and on the other factors of the path.

Smile all the time
dhammarelax

[tiltbillings]

You know that your right view is the right view because it leads you to jhana

The attainment of jhana is not dependent upon Right View.

MN 117 seems to indicate otherwise:

"Bhikkus, I shall teach you noble right concentration with its supports and requisites"

Ever since right view is portrayed as a requisite for right concentration it seems correct to assert that that jhana is dependent upon Right View, and on the other factors of the path.

Smile all the time
dhammarelax

It would seem, but apparently it is not the case, given that jhana is not confined just to Buddhists and can also be a basis for wrong view..

[Mr Man]

It seems to me that a sub-question that keeps emerging on this thread is:

• Do the Suttas, with no elaboration from either ancient or modern teachers, give sufficient information to establish right view, and the rest of the Path?

I would like to add to mikenz66's earlier question

Did the Buddha encourage a path that involved purely studying the sutta for the establishment of right view?

[Mr Man]

Greetings,

If you want to climb mountain Everest, it is easier if you have a guide who has been there before.
Much harder to learn subtle from a book.

To that end, in my experience I have found the best teachers to be those who, though a thorough knowledge of the Sutta Pitaka, are able to bring our attention to certain concepts or themes that we may not have drawn ourselves, through our own unguided reading.

In doing so, they do not invent or proclaim their own Dhamma... they simply show how each "thread" (that being the literal definition of sutta) ties together.

I think it depends a bit on what the teacher is trying to teach. If the goal of our practice is to have a brilliant intellectual understanding of the sutta then yes.

Is transformation really dependant on (intellectually) understanding all the subtle concepts of doctrine?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mr Man,

On that note, I'll redirect you to the first post I made on this topic, back on page one.

Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

Is transformation really dependant on (intellectually) understanding all the subtle concepts of doctrine?

That is an excellent question that is worth addressing. Certainly for those who are inspired by the writings of Nanavira and such as him, that sort of study can be worthwhile, just as the Abhidhamma be worthwhile to some, but in any case neither are certainly necessary for everyone, it would seem.

[Alex123]

Did the Buddha encourage a path that involved purely studying the sutta for the establishment of right view?

In the suttas:

• Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another and appropriate attention. MN43&AN2.126

With metta,

Alex

[Alex123]

What teachers write in a book is there experience.
So it is a quick way to learn.
So having a teacher and reading his/her book could be the best option.

I've read a lot of such books.

[rohana]

Is transformation really dependant on (intellectually) understanding all the subtle concepts of doctrine?

Considering that people who successfully attained the path during the time of the Buddha included beggars and slaves who probably had little to no training in logical thinking or analysis, I suspect the answer is no.

I think another relevant hint might be that in the Canki Sutta, the Buddha advises that when looking for a teacher, one should first look at that person's conduct. The Buddha doesn't say that one should look for erudition. (I don't think this means that erudition is irrelevant, just that when selecting a teacher observing their conduct should come first.)

[Alex123]

Is transformation really dependant on (intellectually) understanding all the subtle concepts of doctrine?

For practice to lead to Nibbana, one must have right views. Of course, some people got right view within minutes.

Practice is hard and can take long time, though.

[tiltbillings]

Did the Buddha encourage a path that involved purely studying the sutta for the establishment of right view?

In the suttas:

• Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another and appropriate attention. MN43&AN2.126

Like a meditation retreat. Thanks for the text.