Gradual practice

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Re: Gradual practice

Post by User1249x »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:37 am
User1249x wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:19 am
Zom wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:16 am Why not. But again. Were these people newbies in Buddhism? Hardly.
Well apparently they were newbies enough in as much as they would be content with just offering Dana!
Also you have no idea who those 500 people were... Clearly the message is that if you are Buddhist enough to offer Dana you should also meditate.
Hmm, somehow there is this idea that if someone's main outward practice seems to giving dana then the person concerned is a "newbie".

According to the sequence here: http://aimwell.org/DPPN/anathapindika.html it appears that the sutta you refer to would have been after Anāthapiṇḍika became a stream enter.

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Then Anathapindika the householder, surrounded by about 500 lay followers,
500+1
I do not consider a stream-enterer a newbie nor do i think he would be content with dana for practice. However even stream-enterer can be complacent but i won't be guessing why the Tathagata said what he said nor what the Anathapindika's practice was at that time beyond that.

As to why it is considered "newbish", i assume it is because it is often taught as first step, dana as part of sila before meditation. There is really not much more of a basic practice apart from the 5 precepts perhaps but giving is a good practice of course and so are 5 precepts.
Last edited by User1249x on Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gradual practice

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yet does not advise Pessa not to meditate, or says that he is wasting his time.
He does not need to - because that monk does not ask this. Buddha just says with what he, as a monk, should begin. And no - not with meditation.
Second, the Graduated Teachings typically advocate the completion or perfection of one task before tackling the next. But they don't, as far as I can see, argue that the completion or perfection is a necessary prerequisite of further progress; merely that it is desirable.
Because this is just obvious. To progress you have to have success in preliminary stages. Whatever you do - even in calculating (math) as MN 107 says.
It is quite possible that the four kinds of mindfulness meditation are accomplished to the extent that one's ethics and views are purified and correct, and that there is no need to delay the meditation until purification and correction are consummate.
I would drop the term "satipatthana" here, since this is a very broad field of different practices. Then again, when I speak about meditation here, I do speak about intenstive retreats and meditative seclusion - don't forget this nuance. If we broaden the term "meditation" up to ordinary self-reflectiveness - then we can say that even preliminary stages are covered by meditation (because you use self-reflectiveness all the time, on all stages). But this is not "meditation" I'm talking about in this thread.
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Re: Gradual practice

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Zom wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:27 am
There is no Dana in Buddha's gradual training program, by the way. Dana, though widespread, still is a collateral practice.
I was going by Bhikkhu Bodhi's account:
In the Pali suttas we read time and again that "talk on giving" (danakatha) was invariably the first topic to be discussed by the Buddha in his "graduated exposition" of the Dhamma. Whenever the Buddha delivered a discourse to an audience of people who had not yet come to regard him as their teacher, he would start by emphasizing the value of giving. Only after his audience had come to appreciate this virtue would he introduce other aspects of his teaching, such as morality, the law of kamma, and the benefits in renunciation, and only after all these principles had made their impact on the minds of his listeners would he expound to them that unique discovery of the Awakened Ones, the Four Noble Truths.
but the same applies to any aspect of the teaching.
Still much more came to Dhamma without meditation.
Maybe, but I'm not interested in proportions here. I just said lots of people. I know several, and have read other accounts, and can't see any reason to doubt their word.
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Re: Gradual practice

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I was going by Bhikkhu Bodhi's account:
Ven. Bodhi speaks about gradual Dhamma exposition (gradual lecture). This is different from gradual path teaching. While Buddha gradually speaking mentions dana in lecture - somehow he doesn't teach Dana to be a part of gradual training. For this reason I consider it collateral.


OK, 4 a.m., what on earth I'm still doing here )
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Re: Gradual practice

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Zom wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:51 am
yet does not advise Pessa not to meditate, or says that he is wasting his time.
He does not need to - because that monk does not ask this. Buddha just says with what he, as a monk, should begin. And no - not with meditation.
The point here is that Pessa is not a monk. He is a white-clothed lay follower, who meditates, even though he considers himself to have less than perfect sila and wisdom, in the way the Buddha prescribes.
Because this is just obvious. To progress you have to have success in preliminary stages.
Some success, certainly, but I see no evidence that one must have complete success. Neither in the Graduated Teaching, nor in most other endeavours.
I would drop the term "satipatthana" here, since this is a very broad field of different practices. Then again, when I speak about meditation here, I do speak about intenstive retreats and meditative seclusion - don't forget this nuance. If we broaden the term "meditation" up to ordinary self-reflectiveness - then we can say that even preliminary stages are covered by meditation (because you use self-reflectiveness all the time, on all stages). But this is not "meditation" I'm talking about in this thread.
Sure. I mean periods of formal sitting meditation, rather than mere self-reflectiveness.
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Re: Gradual practice

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Zom wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:57 am
I was going by Bhikkhu Bodhi's account:
Ven. Bodhi speaks about gradual Dhamma exposition (gradual lecture). This is different from gradual path teaching. While Buddha gradually speaking mentions dana in lecture - somehow he doesn't teach Dana to be a part of gradual training. For this reason I consider it collateral.
OK. Still, the same applies to any aspect of the training. If one can doubt the efficacy of meditation, then one can doubt the efficacy of any aspect.
OK, 4 a.m., what on earth I'm still doing here )
Apologies for keeping you up, Zom. Time for :zzz: And thank you for a very interesting discussion, which has given me food for thought.

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Re: Gradual practice

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perhaps those 500 were meditators and not beginners, i don't know, it is foolish of me to assume that they were beginners because i do not know who they were. It is also bad to speak of dana as a lower practice. However i still think it is bad to dicourage meditation.
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Re: Gradual practice

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User1249x wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:21 am perhaps those 500 were meditators and not beginners, i don't know, it is foolish of me to assume that they were beginners because i do not know who they were. It is also bad to speak of dana as a lower practice. However i still think it is bad to dicourage meditation.
What Zom was discouraging was intensive practice without proper preparation. See the sutta I posted here:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31978&p=473913#p473913
Bhaddāli, take a mendicant who doesn’t fulfill the training according to the Teacher’s instructions. They think: ‘Why don’t I frequent a secluded lodging—a wilderness, the root of a tree, a hill, a ravine, a mountain cave, a charnel ground, a forest, the open air, a heap of straw. Hopefully I’ll realize a superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones.’ So he frequents a secluded lodging. While they’re living withdrawn, they’re reprimanded by the Teacher, by sensible spiritual companions after examination, by deities, and by themselves. Being reprimanded in this way, they don’t realize any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. Why is that? Because that’s how it is when someone doesn’t fulfill the training according to the Teacher’s instructions.
https://suttacentral.net/mn65/en/sujato#sc17
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Re: Gradual practice

Post by budo »

It seems Zom's goal posts are constantly changing. You don't need to go on retreat to experience jhanas, you also don't need to be a non-returner. You just need diligent daily practice to build momentum that caries over to the next sitting, suppress the 5 hindrances temporarily, develop the 5 jhana factors, review and reflect after your sitting to figure out what you were lacking and what can you improve on. In other words, you need a proactive approach.

When I say meditation I mean sitting down and starting practice, whether anapanasati, kasina, metta, or whatever that leads to jhana or insight. Redefining "meditation" as something as a retreat, is shifting the goal posts, it's just dishonest trolling in order to win a silly internet argument. Meditation is meditation, retreat is retreat, keep it simple and honest, don't redefine terms and hide your redefinitions by omission, that's dishonest.

When I say seclusion, I mean seclusion from the senses like the suttas say, specifically noise/sound as you can get away from seeing by closing your eyes, touching by sitting comfortably, smelling by not being anywhere with strong odours, etc.. Only sound has the ability to travel far and through walls, therefore sound is the biggest issue. I'm not saying you should sit half naked in some jungle or a bear cave or something, your living room usually suffices.

You won't be able to enter jhanas if you're lacking the preliminary groundwork like sila anyway, so jhanas are a good litmus test. If you do enter jhanas, it means you're doing something right. There's nothing to be scared of if you follow the 16 steps the Buddha laid out for you.

Overall, I believe there is a lot of self-dishonesty (aka delusion) among posters in these online arguments which make them mostly a waste of time. Especially among posters who write vague short paragraphs and use vague terms like "beginner", thinking they've refuted a point, and then shift the goal posts.

Having said that, there is nothing more productive for me in this thread, good luck to everyone on their path. Those who practice should continue, it is better than debating on the internet. Trust your own experiences first and foremost and don't be concerned with labels, they are just measuring tools.

If stress/dukkha is going down overall then you are doing the right thing.
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Re: Gradual practice

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mikenz66 wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:01 am That quote refers to someone who refused to keep precepts, however Zom said in OP "meditation retreats+keeping precepts..." I do not see how this is relevant.
Respectfully, I disagree. The way I read that, and other suttas, is the Buddha warning that without the gradual path described in a number of suttas, such as https://suttacentral.net/mn27/, going into intensive practice may well lead to frustration and lack of progress. Especially if there is no contact with experienced people who know how to steer you around the pitfalls.

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Re: Gradual practice

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User1249x wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:10 am
mikenz66 wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:01 am That quote refers to someone who refused to keep precepts, however Zom said in OP "meditation retreats+keeping precepts..." I do not see how this is relevant.
Respectfully, I disagree. The way I read that, and other suttas, is the Buddha warning that without the gradual path described in a number of suttas, such as https://suttacentral.net/mn27/, going into intensive practice may well lead to frustration and lack of progress. Especially if there is no contact with experienced people who know how to steer you around the pitfalls.

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It is not clear to me what you mean by intensive practice. As i understand it there is nothing wrong with undertaking a comperhensive practice and training intensively after having received a proper instruction.

I wonder which particular meditation retreats and teachers one should avoid in your opinion and what you consider sufficient preparation for particular retreats.. afaik it is most common that meditation is taught gradually.
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Re: Gradual practice

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The point here is that Pessa is not a monk. He is a white-clothed lay follower, who meditates, even though he considers himself to have less than perfect sila and wisdom, in the way the Buddha prescribes.
Ow, I think we are talking about different persons here. I was refering to a monk in SN 47.3.
Some success, certainly, but I see no evidence that one must have complete success. Neither in the Graduated Teaching, nor in most other endeavours.
Yes, 100% mastery is not needed. However, some, well, lets say, at least 80% is highly recommended. Other 20% you'll develop eventually along the way. And here we go on your next comment:
OK. Still, the same applies to any aspect of the training. If one can doubt the efficacy of meditation, then one can doubt the efficacy of any aspect.
Well, you can doubt anything anytime. However. One can clearly see if there are results or not. What is the results of fulfilment such stage as "learning Dhamma"? You know a lot. Or you know little. Hom much should you know to move further? Well, at least know what is the Path, what is the goal, what tools are there to use, how, when they should be used, etc. When you understand this, that is enough to practise further. Or, take a stage "right views". How do you know you have right views? Again, look at yourself, at what you believe, what you consider right and correct. Compare with texts. Still and doubts, disagreements? You can actually see if have (some) right views or not (according to texts). Ok. Some next stage. Verbal Behavior. How do you behave verbally in real life? Lies... gossips... rude words? Sometimes maybe? Or maybe not!? You can see quite clearly if you are accomplished here or not as well. Some next stage. Sense Restraint. Okay - how easily do you observe such instructions? Do you easily fulfil them all the time in all situations - so that bad unwholesome qualities do not appear in your mind, because it is so well guarded? Or this is still a big problem for you? Again - you can clearly see how good you are here. And same with meditation actually (and all other stages). How easily do your enter sublime peaceful states, undistracted by thoughts, by hindrances? For how long? Do you do that easily anytime? If so, where are your deerper (or - higher) results like bliss, rapture, jhanas? If you practise meditation (ok, here we mean that word in "intensive" sense) for several years and you have no jhanas - this is a failure. You should go back and see if previous stages are fulfilled (and I'm sure one will find out he/she has a LOT of work waiting to be done there -)
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Re: Gradual practice

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What Zom was discouraging was intensive practice without proper preparation. See the sutta I posted here:
Ow, a nice sutta quote I totally forgot. Among those I usually recall this one:

The Blessed One, brahmin, did not praise every type of meditation, nor did he condemn every type of meditation. What kind of meditation did the Blessed One not praise? Here, brahmin, someone abides with his mind obsessed by sensual lust, a prey to sensual lust, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from arisen sensual lust. While he harbours sensual lust within, he meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates. He abides with his mind obsessed by ill will, a prey to ill will…with his mind obsessed by sloth and torpor, a prey to sloth and torpor…with his mind obsessed by restlessness and remorse, a prey to restlessness and remorse…with his mind obsessed by doubt, a prey to doubt, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from arisen doubt. While he harbours doubt within, he meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates. The Blessed One did not praise that kind of meditation.


(mismeditates -- what a word -) and this is exactly the case with most meditators -)
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Re: Gradual practice

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Zom wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:02 am If you practise meditation (ok, here we mean that word in "intensive" sense) for several years and you have no jhanas - this is a failure.
You may be right, but only if you had set out to reach those jhanas and nothing else. I think a really good outcome from a meditation practice (involving regular sitting, and retreats as well if there is time to fit them in) would be that one has developed enough self-possession and clarity to advance the other work like attaining to Right View and Right Speech. And these, in turn, supported the meditation practice by removing hindrances. A virtuous circle, if you like. Given that progress in any of the areas can be lengthy and arduous, I think that the most rationally optimistic approach for me would be to take the mutually supportive nature of the Eightfold Path as a working hypothesis. Of course, others may see things differently, which is why I find your approach interesting and creditable without wishing to adopt it.

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Re: Gradual practice

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You may be right, but only if you had set out to reach those jhanas and nothing else.
But that practice is meant to get jhanas. Meditation is only for that, according to texts. Nowadays, of course, meditation became a panacea - but in good old times it was not. It was a special method to get particular special results known as jhanas.
I think a really good outcome from a meditation practice (involving regular sitting, and retreats as well if there is time to fit them in) would be that one has developed enough self-possession and clarity to advance the other work like attaining to Right View and Right Speech. And these, in turn, supported the meditation practice by removing hindrances. A virtuous circle, if you like.
Yes, they write about this in books - but this is because meditation is a trend, and so they ascribe to it all possible benefits one can imagine. From my experience I can say this is not so - especially if we talk about Views and Speech. I mean, while working with defiled states of mind and developing good states and good behavior, there is no need for meditation. Self-awareness and recollection is more than enough here, they are our main tools; first of these develops by itself when you apply it (again no need for meditation), and second one develops when you read, ponder, discuss Dhamma in general. Dhamma thoughts by themselves do tremendous job in rectifying one's behavior. Again, no need for meditation. In years I tried both methods, so I can compare. As for hindrances - in certain texts you can find passages that say (as it may seem) meditation can do this, it removes them. However, hindrances themselves can be very different - this is why in some cases you read something like "meditation should not be done if you have hindrances" and "meditation removes hindrances". Contradiction? No. Because meditation deals only with subtle kind of hindrances, part of which are famous "upakilesas" listed in MN 128 (these are not really defilements), while it doesn't deal with "normal" (gross) hindrances like sensuality, ill-will, stinginess, envy, conceit, etc., and of course it by itself just can do nothing with bad behavior. Meditation is supposed to remove hardly seen obstacles to jhanic states, while in-jhanic meditation is supposed to remove still subtler defilements which are latent mental tendencies (anusayas). Previous stages of the Path are supposed to deal with (remove, abolish) normal, ordinary defilements, seen easily in our normal everyday life and situations. This is the main reason why they are introduced (stages, not defilements -). Meditation is not panacea, it is not a tool for everything - and never been.
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