Sexual misconduct and prostitute

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Bundokji
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Bundokji » Sun May 24, 2015 7:32 pm

Aloka wrote:
Bundokji wrote:women are sexy in the eyes of men, and they use this "sexiness" in many ways for their own advantage and most of us find this to be normal/acceptable. In fact, from a purely secular and evolutionary point of view, the female sexuality is a key to her survival

That might be the case where you live in Jordan, Mohammed, but in the western world there are plenty of women in responsible positions in all professions, who get there through their hard work and qualifications for the job, not through being "sexy" to men.


:anjali:
Thanks Aloka :smile:

I did not say that all women get ahead in life because of their sexiness or rely solely on it, so I don't think we are in disagreement here :smile:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

Feathers
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Feathers » Sun May 24, 2015 7:40 pm

Ok, somewhat pointlessly I am going to sum up my views on prostitution and the use of prostitutes, mostly so I know it has actually been said as no-one else seems to be articulating this view, and then bow out of this thread.

Prostitution:

- great compassion for the women involved in it who have been forced or cooerced, or driven by absolute necessity
- compassion too for the women who half enjoy it / tolerate it as 'just another job''
- if they really went into it 100% freely and really enjoy it, fine (possibly not skillful or something I'd do, mind you), not my business
- needless to say, more help for people who don't want to be prostitutes is needed!

Using prostitutes:

- nope. Ok, if you really research and you are sure that the woman is not a child, not there purely out of desperation, not coerced, not controlled by a pimp who takes her earnings . . . . if you're sure, then again, possibly not skillful or something I'd do, but not my business. But how many people actually check? And how can you be sure?
- for the people who use prostitutes? Honestly, I despise them. Sure, everyone has their struggles, everyone deserves compassion, but when you are contributing to an industry that is so often harmful . . .
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by lyndon taylor » Sun May 24, 2015 7:59 pm

Feathers wrote:Ok, somewhat pointlessly I am going to sum up my views on prostitution and the use of prostitutes, mostly so I know it has actually been said as no-one else seems to be articulating this view, and then bow out of this thread.

Prostitution:

- great compassion for the women involved in it who have been forced or cooerced, or driven by absolute necessity
- compassion too for the women who half enjoy it / tolerate it as 'just another job''
- if they really went into it 100% freely and really enjoy it, fine (possibly not skillful or something I'd do, mind you), not my business
- needless to say, more help for people who don't want to be prostitutes is needed!

Using prostitutes:

- nope. Ok, if you really research and you are sure that the woman is not a child, not there purely out of desperation, not coerced, not controlled by a pimp who takes her earnings . . . . if you're sure, then again, possibly not skillful or something I'd do, but not my business. But how many people actually check? And how can you be sure?
- for the people who use prostitutes? Honestly, I despise them. Sure, everyone has their struggles, everyone deserves compassion, but when you are contributing to an industry that is so often harmful . . .
That pretty much sums up my opinion, Feathers, and in answer to Dhammanando's question, is what I would mean by anti prostitution.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Aloka
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Aloka » Sun May 24, 2015 9:54 pm

Some information about prostitution in the UK:
More than half of women in prostitution have been raped and or seriously assaulted and at least 75% have been physically assaulted at the hands of the pimps and punters. 74% of women in prostitution identify poverty, the need to pay household expenses and support their children, as primary motivators for being drawn into prostitution. [Home office (2004). Solutions and Strategies: Drug Problems and Street Sex Markets. London: UK Government]

As many as 85% of women in prostitution report physical abuse in the family, with 45% reporting familial sexual abuse. [Home Office Paying the Price, 2004]

A report in the British Medical Journal about client violence towards women in prostitution stated that of the 125 women in indoor prostitution contacted, 48% had experienced client violence. The types of violence experienced included: being slapped, punched, or kicked; robbery; attempted robbery; beaten; threatened with weapon; held against will; attempted rape; strangulation; kidnapped; attempted kidnap; forced to give client oral sex; vaginal rape and anal rape. [Church, S., Henderson, M., Barnard, M. and Hart, G. (2001). Violence by clients towards female prostitutes in different work settings: questionnaire survey. British Medical Journal, 322. 524-525.]

Women in street prostitution are 12 times more likely to be murdered than the rate for all women in same age group in the UK [Salfati, C. G. (2009). Prostitute Homicide: An Overview of the Literature and Comparison to Sexual and Non-Sexual Female Victim Homicide, pp. 51-68. In D. Canter, M. Ioannou, & D. Youngs (Eds.) Safer Sex in the City: The Experience and Management of Street Prostitution. The Psychology, Crime and Law Series. Aldershot: Ashgate.]

Women in prostitution are 18 times more likely to be murdered than the general population. [New Philanthropy Capital (2007). Hard Knock Life. London: New Philanthropy Capital.]

People are much less likely to be convicted of murdering a prostitute than of any other murder. The conviction rate of 75% for murder drops to 26% when it comes to killings of women in prostitution. [Raymond, K., Brothels and safe red light areas are the only way forward, in The Observer December 17 2006]

An Australian study of women involved in street-based prostitution found very high rates of drug use (83% heroin, but also cocaine, methamphetamine, cannabis and alcohol) and injecting, as well as risky use behaviours. They also found very high levels of mental health problems (e.g. 54% severe depressive symptoms), including suicidal thoughts (74%) and attempts (42%). [Roxburgh, A., Degenhardt, L., Copeland, J. and Larance, B. (2008). Drug Dependence and Associated Risks Among Female Street-Based Sex Workers in the Greater Sydney Area, Australia. Substance Use & Misuse, 43, 1202-1217.

87% of women in street-based prostitution use heroin. [Hester, M. and Westmarland, N. (2004). Tackling Street Prostitution: Towards an Holistic Approach, Home Office Research Study 279, London: Home Office.]

80-95% of women who are involved on the streets are problematic drug users. [May, T. and Hunter, G. (2006). Sex work and problem drug use in the UK: the links, problems and possible solutions. In R. Campbell and M. O'Neill (eds.). Sex work now. Cullompton: Willan

[urlhttp://www.avaproject.org.uk/what-we-do/consultancy.aspx][/url]

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by lyndon taylor » Sun May 24, 2015 10:17 pm

And people are claiming from a Buddhist standpoint there is nothing wrong with prostitution????????
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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robertk
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by robertk » Mon May 25, 2015 1:30 am

Every one speaks of misogyny, but no speaks of misandry. This is another example of bias and hypocrisy in my opinion. Many of the men who use prostitutes are old, ugly, maybe they don't have nice personalities, but none of these things are of their choice. If people can choose, they would choose to be young all the time, good looking with an attractive personality. We find it quite normal to discriminate against them based upon their looks or age, this is for us morally OK, and we want to portray the female to be always the victim
I am sure this is going to be a hated post but still...
One acquaintance of mine , when i was living in Bangkok, came for his first trip. He was immediately attracted by the bubbly women he observed.
Anyway he went to a couple of bars.

Warning from here is a story of sex workers. Do not read if this might offend you.

So on the second or third bar he met a girl. Noy was her name, number 39.

He asks her if she would go with him. She immediately told him " i cashier , not go man. I veeerginnn girl"

Anyway he persisted And , much to his surprise ( he had never had much success with the fairer sex in his own country,) was rewarded when the next night she agreed to go with him " for dinner only".
Their romance blossomed over the next week. And , always respectful of her delicate status as a virgin, he showed her around the town.
She said she liked his big tummy and "you good heart".
So the following week, having seen all he needed to, he proposed and they were married.

Stop reading now: sex scene is next.

He came out of the bathroom into the bridal suite in his birthday suit.

" oh what a cute little weewee "Noy exclaimed.
"Actually darling we call that a c...."
"Oh no my honey, I have seen many many c...... , but that is definitely a weewee.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Dhammanando » Mon May 25, 2015 2:22 am

lyndon taylor wrote:So as a celibate monk living in Thailand, of all places, you would not consider yourself anti-prostitution???

You still haven’t properly defined your terms. Perhaps the best course is for me to offer a catechetical summary of my views and you can decide for yourself into which of your semantically murky pigeonholes you wish to place me...


Q. Is sex with a prostitute akusala?
A. Yes, but only in the sense that all sex is akusala.

Q. Is sex with a prostitute a violation of the third precept?
A. No.

Q. Do the Pali texts offer any Buddhist grounds for objecting to prostitution?
A. Yes. It is a species of womanizing (itthidhutta) and all womanizing is treated as imprudent insofar as it tends to result in loss of wealth.

Q. Do the prostitution-related evils mentioned by several posters in this thread amount to a Buddhist objection to prostitution?
A. No. Since analogous evils can readily be found in sexual relationships of a kind that these posters would not judge morally blameworthy, their objections are specious.

Q. Should prostitution be outlawed?
A. No. Consenting adults should be free to enter into whatever contractual relationship they like regarding the enjoyment of each other’s bodies, including paid-for sex. The role of the state here, as in any other contractual relationship, should not go beyond that of preventing coercion, fraud or violence.


Now it seems to me that my answers to the first four questions ought not to be a matter of argument for any Buddhists whose moral outlook is grounded in the Pali texts. As for my answer to the fifth, this is just my personal opinion and I readily concede that some Buddhists may in good conscience hold to a non-libertarian position.

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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by lyndon taylor » Mon May 25, 2015 2:35 am

Is what you are saying that you can be an observant Buddhist keeping the 5 precepts, and sincerely following the 8 fold path, and STILL visit prostitutes with no offense??? Do Buddhist authorities back up this position or is it entirely your own??
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Dhammanando » Mon May 25, 2015 2:59 am

lyndon taylor wrote:So what you are saying is you can be an observant Buddhist keeping the 5 precepts, and sincerely following the 8 fold path, and STILL visit prostitutes with no offense??? I'd like to see some authorities backing up that position if that is indeed your position.
Prostitutes are not included in any of the lists of persons with whom sex would be a violation of the third precept. Therefore sex with them does not violate the third precept, unless the woman also happens to be in one of the categories which are prohibited (e.g., a married woman who is engaging in prostitution).

If a Buddhist isn't breaking the third precept then his sex-life isn't at odds with the sammā-kammanta of the eightfold path.

For further discussion of the matter, see the Womanizing thread.

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by lyndon taylor » Mon May 25, 2015 3:04 am

It seems the author at Buddhanet has a different opinion on prostitution;

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/wbq27.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Dhammanando
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Dhammanando » Mon May 25, 2015 3:08 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Do Buddhist authorities back up this position or is it entirely your own??
Any Buddhist scholar who's versed in the Pali texts will confirm what I've said, including the writer at Buddhanet whom you've linked to, though without apparently understanding what he's saying.

In popular Buddhist preaching, of course, it's not a point that's much stressed, for when the subject of prostitution comes up in a typical sermon, the emphasis will usually be upon its being a species of womanizing and therefore something that's liable to be deleterious to wealth and domestic felicity.

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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by rowboat » Mon May 25, 2015 3:43 am



'It's Wrong to Pay for Sex' Debate from 'Intelligence Squared' - Melissa Farley (author or co-author of some of the following research)

Prostitution in Five Countries: Violence and Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, USA, Zambia)

Comparing Sex Buyers with Men Who Don’t Buy Sex

Prostitution and the Invisibility of Harm

Prostitution, Violence,
and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder



May she be happy, healthy and whole.
May she have love, warmth and affection.
May she be protected from harm, and free from fear.
May she be alive, engaged and joyful.
May she enjoy inner peace and ease.
May that peace expand into her world and throughout the entire universe.


:candle:
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by lyndon taylor » Mon May 25, 2015 3:54 am

Dhammanando wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Do Buddhist authorities back up this position or is it entirely your own??
Any Buddhist scholar who's versed in the Pali texts will confirm what I've said, including the writer at Buddhanet whom you've linked to, though without apparently understanding what he's saying.

In popular Buddhist preaching, of course, it's not a point that's much stressed, for when the subject of prostitution comes up in a typical sermon, the emphasis will usually be upon its being a species of womanizing and therefore something that's liable to be deleterious to wealth and domestic felicity.
Sorry but my link to Buddha net does not support your position AT ALL. You have made the assertion that every Buddhist scholar agrees with your position without quoting or referencing one single Buddhist scholar or scripture to support your interpretation.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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mikenz66
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by mikenz66 » Mon May 25, 2015 4:27 am

Lyndon, I think you are confusing the question:
"Does it violate the precepts?"
with the question:
"Is it behaviour that should be encouraged?"

The article you linked to certainly advises against prostitution, but it does not mention the precepts.

I think that Ven Dhammanando has made it quite clear, that he would also not advise such action, but that, like many other actions that would be best avoided, it is not a violation of the basic precepts. Since it is, in any case, a personal choice to follow the basic precepts, or a more refined form, (or not) then I'm not sure why this is an issue.

:anjali:
Mike

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by lyndon taylor » Mon May 25, 2015 4:42 am

I can see how you say it all comes down to interpretation of the precepts, kind of like some people interpret the No kill precept towards vegetarianism, some do not.

It really comes down to how you word the precept, I was taught "No sex outside a committed relationship", which obviously would exclude prostitution, but I don't know if that is an accurate scripturaly based rendering of the precept. It seems the wording of individual precepts is different in different scriptures, and interpreted in more than one sutta. I think the message that should be made quite clear to people is that the No Sex precept is a spiritual way of looking at relationship and commitment, and prostitution, legal or otherwise has no place in a strict interpretation of the spirit of the precept.

I'd hate to think some young kid, struggling with their sexuality, and investigating Buddhism on this forum, comes a way with the idea that seeing a prostitute is an acceptable form of expression by Buddhist sources, I do not believe it is.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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