Sexual misconduct and prostitute

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Ben
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Ben » Sun May 24, 2015 5:11 am

Personally, I don't have a problem with people going into the sex industry if they wish. However, if they are coerced then it is akin to sex slavery. In this country, prostitution is highly regulated in most states and it has been successful in separating it from organised crime. The vast majority of legal brothels won't employ staff who are on drugs and the working boys and girls are, in general, a lot safer from physical violence than they were in the past.

What I find more concerning was a recent expose regarding the working conditions of itinerant foreign workers in Australia who work on farms supplying the supermarket and fast food restaurant chains. It's sad to learn that slave labour is going on in this country.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/ ... 227055.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for the morality of men going to a prostitute and the relative Kamma to that of a man having sex with one's wife - it's a hard one.
With metta,
Ben
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mirco
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by mirco » Sun May 24, 2015 8:08 am

Bundokji wrote:As any other job, you would find some prostitutes who are not happy about it
I know a few former prostitutes myself - and I know their stories.

Will you please get me just one prostitute, telling here how wholesome this job is to him/her.



Best Wishes
"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." - Bhikkhu Anālayo

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mirco
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by mirco » Sun May 24, 2015 8:24 am

Ben wrote:In this country, prostitution is highly regulated in most states and
it has been successful in separating it from organised crime.
How do you know?


Best Wishes
"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." - Bhikkhu Anālayo

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Aloka
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Aloka » Sun May 24, 2015 8:43 am

Dhammanado wrote: Unlike sex with one’s wife, after sex with a prostitute a man can just get up, take a shower and then go read a book or meditate or something. He doesn’t have to waste an hour lying in bed reluctantly feigning post-coital affection.
What an unflattering picture you paint of relationships with woman, Bhante.

Rather than leaping up to take a shower & "read a book or meditate or something," or staying in bed "feigning'"affection,
I think it's probably more usual that a man will roll over and lie on his back snoring loudly.

:anjali:

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tiltbillings
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by tiltbillings » Sun May 24, 2015 9:05 am

Aloka wrote:
Dhammanado wrote: Unlike sex with one’s wife, after sex with a prostitute a man can just get up, take a shower and then go read a book or meditate or something. He doesn’t have to waste an hour lying in bed reluctantly feigning post-coital affection.
What an unflattering picture you paint of relationships with woman, Bhante.

Rather than leaping up to take a shower & "read a book or meditate or something," or staying in bed "feigning'"affection,
I think it's probably more usual that a man will roll over and lie on his back snoring loudly.

:anjali:
Hilarious.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

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Feathers
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Feathers » Sun May 24, 2015 9:24 am

Dhammanando wrote:
mirco wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:As for prostitution, I really don’t understand why so many western Buddhists have this idée fixe about there being something inordinately evil in a man’s paying a woman to have sex with him.
That's rooted deep down in the history of christian marriage in Europe since the middle ages. It's not the paying, that makes it 'evil'.
Possibly, though the problem with this theory is that the sort of Buddhists who get apoplectic, or at least voice misgivings, when they hear me expressing a generally accepting view of prostitution are in most cases socially liberal enough that they don’t have any problem with people going into singles bars looking for a one-night stand. Now in the traditional Christian view, a one-night stand would be classed under “the sin of fornication” no less than prostitution would. Yet in its casualness and ephemerality a one-night stand is essentially the same as sex with a prostitute, the former being differentiated solely by the absence of payment and the fact that the woman is seldom subject to any economic duress.
You phrase it as though there is little difference between a one night stand and sleeping with a prostitute, then include that . . . can you not see the huge difference? Yes, in terms of the purchaser (lust, attachment etc.) there might not be much difference, but in terms of the suffering caused . . . a casual one night stand between two free individuals may or may not be unskillful, but at least they're both having fun and doing it willingly!!!
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Bundokji
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Bundokji » Sun May 24, 2015 12:47 pm

mirco wrote:
Bundokji wrote:As any other job, you would find some prostitutes who are not happy about it
I know a few former prostitutes myself - and I know their stories.

Will you please get me just one prostitute, telling here how wholesome this job is to him/her.



Best Wishes
Hello :smile:

Not long ago, hundreds of Australian sex workers decided to go public using social media, and they posted some messages on twitter such as:

"College student. Aspiring lawyer. Activist. Daughter, sister, sex worker. I don't need rescuing."

The full article is on the BBC website

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-32165949" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The whole point of the article is that many sex workers are getting fed up with the generalized way many view this profession, and I think they have a good point.

I would not say that prostitution is wholesome, but it isn't worse than many of the behaviours that we consider normal just because the vast majority of us do it, that would include marriage as Dhammanado mentioned, and as Ben pointed out, there are many jobs with a worse working conditions. In fact, if you are a leftist/communist you might view all wage working as a form of slavery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would go to the extent to say that in some countries where a man has to pay huge amount of money to his future wife and her family, the only difference between this kind of marriage and prostitution is that a sex worker sell her self retail, and the other one wholesale! Maybe prostitution is a bit less harmful because the chance to make kids is much lower!

I knew some girls when I was a student who go out to the bar almost every night with no money at all, and dance with the guys in order to seduce them and get free drinks! They don't sleep with them, they just dance with them dirty dancing and then ask them to buy them drinks, and after that they laugh among themselves and call the boys idiots! Now, this kind of behaviour is some how tolerated and less criticized than prostitution. The only difference (at least in my mind) is that the sex worker is more honest in what she is doing, but cant you see the social hypocrisy here.

Every one speaks of misogyny, but no speaks of misandry. This is another example of bias and hypocrisy in my opinion. Many of the men who use prostitutes are old, ugly, maybe they don't have nice personalities, but none of these things are of their choice. If people can choose, they would choose to be young all the time, good looking with an attractive personality. We find it quite normal to discriminate against them based upon their looks or age, this is for us morally OK, and we want to portray the female to be always the victim!

You can use Google to read about a lot of stories of western men, who travel to south east Asia, and fall in love with sex workers and decided to marry them, or support them financially or helping them to have a new life. You would be surprised to read that most stories didn't conclude in a very nice way! Believe it or not, most prostitutes become sex addicts and they are unable to conduct a normal life anymore which is a very sad thing. But it also reveals that many of them enjoy what they are doing! They don't only look for money, they also look for good sex.

Peace
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

chownah
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by chownah » Sun May 24, 2015 2:18 pm

Believe it or not, most prostitutes become sex addicts
This seems to go against the usual perception that after a couple of months of several sex partners a day a sex worker will lose any satisfaction in their sexual encounters.
chownah

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mirco
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by mirco » Sun May 24, 2015 3:20 pm

Dhamma Greetings Bundokji :smile: ,
Bundokji wrote:Not long ago, hundreds of Australian sex workers decided to go public using social media, and they posted some messages on twitter such as:
"College student. Aspiring lawyer. Activist. Daughter, sister, sex worker. I don't need rescuing."
The full article is on the BBC website http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-32165949" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
[...]
You can use Google to read about a lot of stories of western men, who travel to south east Asia, and fall in love with sex workers and decided to marry them, or support them financially or helping them to have a new life. You would be surprised to read that most stories didn't conclude in a very nice way! Believe it or not, most prostitutes become sex addicts and they are unable to conduct a normal life anymore which is a very sad thing. But it also reveals that many of them enjoy what they are doing! They don't only look for money, they also look for good sex.
[...]
I would go to the extent to say that in some countries where a man has to pay huge amount of money to his future wife and her family, the only difference between this kind of marriage and prostitution is that a sex worker sell her self retail, and the other one wholesale! Maybe prostitution is a bit less harmful because the chance to make kids is much lower!
Thank you very much for your point of view and for the new input.

Bundokji wrote:I knew some girls when I was a student who go out to the bar almost every night with no money at all, and dance with the guys in order to seduce them and get free drinks! They don't sleep with them, they just dance with them dirty dancing and then ask them to buy them drinks, and after that they laugh among themselves and call the boys idiots! Now, this kind of behaviour is some how tolerated and less criticized than prostitution. The only difference (at least in my mind) is that the sex worker is more honest in what she is doing, but cant you see the social hypocrisy here.
Tolerated by whom?


Best Wishes!
"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." - Bhikkhu Anālayo

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Dhammanando
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Dhammanando » Sun May 24, 2015 4:42 pm

Feathers wrote:You phrase it as though there is little difference between a one night stand and sleeping with a prostitute, then include that . . . can you not see the huge difference? Yes, in terms of the purchaser (lust, attachment etc.) there might not be much difference, but in terms of the suffering caused . . . a casual one night stand between two free individuals may or may not be unskillful, but at least they're both having fun and doing it willingly!!!
I stated that the two acts were essentially similar in their ephemerality and casualness, which is to say, my comparison was confined to the factors of duration and significance (or momentousness).

Now as for the “fun” factor, my omission of this was not because I consider this difference to be a slight one. But nor do I agree with you that it’s a huge one. As I see it, the difference in the two cases is simply an incommensurable one. The female swingers enjoying a one-night stand and the sex-workers servicing their clients obtain two entirely different kinds of “fun” that cannot really be compared. The swingers’ fun is that of bodily pleasure. The sex-workers’ (setting aside those of them who get aroused by having sex with strangers) is the pleasure that they get from having exchanged that which they valued less (their time) for that which they valued more (their client’s money). Their “fun”, in other words, consists in the mental satisfaction generated by contemplation of a successfully concluded free-market transaction that they deem to have been favourable to their interests.

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by lyndon taylor » Sun May 24, 2015 4:55 pm

So as a celibate monk living in Thailand, of all places, you would not consider yourself anti-prostitution???
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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Dhammanando
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Dhammanando » Sun May 24, 2015 5:10 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:So as a celibate monk living in Thailand, of all places, you would not consider yourself anti-prostitution???
What do you mean by “anti-prostitution” ?

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Bundokji
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Bundokji » Sun May 24, 2015 5:29 pm

mirco wrote:Tolerated by whom?
As far as I know, by almost everyone! women are sexy in the eyes of men, and they use this "sexiness" in many ways for their own advantage and most of us find this to be normal/acceptable. In fact, from a purely secular and evolutionary point of view, the female sexuality is a key to her survival. Most men try to act as if they were strong and in control, but they become extremely infront of the female body

Even politicians and clergymen are not immune to this, you hear about different scandals every now and then, so to sum up, men are not less worthy of compassion and sympathy because of their foolishness infront of women :smile:

With Metta
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Bundokji
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Bundokji » Sun May 24, 2015 5:45 pm

chownah wrote:
Believe it or not, most prostitutes become sex addicts
This seems to go against the usual perception that after a couple of months of several sex partners a day a sex worker will lose any satisfaction in their sexual encounters.
chownah
Maybe some would embrace it to ease the pain or as a way to rebel against the discrimination sex workers are subjected to. Even the word "prostitution" is some how degrading.

I don't know if you agree, but what we believe about ourselves determines our behaviour to a large extent. If we believe that we are good people, this very belief will make us behave nicely, and vice versa. Now, imagine the impact of being described as "prostitute" by others, this in itself would result in a deep sense of worthlessness .

Peace
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Aloka
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Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Aloka » Sun May 24, 2015 5:46 pm

Bundokji wrote:women are sexy in the eyes of men, and they use this "sexiness" in many ways for their own advantage and most of us find this to be normal/acceptable. In fact, from a purely secular and evolutionary point of view, the female sexuality is a key to her survival

That might be the case where you live in Jordan, Mohammed, but in the western world there are plenty of women in responsible positions in all professions, who get there through their hard work and qualifications for the job, not through being "sexy" to men.


:anjali:

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