Sexual misconduct and prostitute

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3114
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Mr Man » Sat May 23, 2015 7:56 pm

Prostitution is usually connected with criminality and other forms of unskilful behaviour (drugs, booze etc). Coercion and exploitation is often involved. I think it often encourages or normalises misogyny and objectification.

User avatar
rowboat
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Location: Brentwood Bay

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by rowboat » Sat May 23, 2015 8:43 pm

.

Prostitution in Five Countries: Violence and Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, USA, Zambia)

Comparing Sex Buyers with Men Who Don’t Buy Sex

Prostitution and the Invisibility of Harm

Prostitution, Violence,
and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder



May she be happy, healthy and whole.
May she have love, warmth and affection.
May she be protected from harm, and free from fear.
May she be alive, engaged and joyful.
May she enjoy inner peace and ease.
May that peace expand into her world and throughout the entire universe.


:candle:
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 15314
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by mikenz66 » Sat May 23, 2015 9:44 pm

Mr Man wrote:Prostitution is usually connected with criminality and other forms of unskilful behaviour (drugs, booze etc). Coercion and exploitation is often involved. I think it often encourages or normalises misogyny and objectification.
Certainly, this is a serious problem.

Which is why many countries, such as my own, have decriminalised it, so that the workers feel free to talk to the police about such things.

Curiously, this even led to a woman collecting an unemployment benefit having sex work suggested by her case manager, ...
I can't find an NZ report on this right now, but here's a German one: https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2012/01/0 ... stitution/


:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3114
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Mr Man » Sat May 23, 2015 10:03 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Prostitution is usually connected with criminality and other forms of unskilful behaviour (drugs, booze etc). Coercion and exploitation is often involved. I think it often encourages or normalises misogyny and objectification.
Certainly, this is a serious problem.

Which is why many countries, such as my own, have decriminalised it, so that the workers feel free to talk to the police about such things.

Curiously, this even led to a woman collecting an unemployment benefit having sex work suggested by her case manager, ...
I can't find an NZ report on this right now, but here's a German one: https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2012/01/0 ... stitution/

In the UK it is not illegal to pay for sex (except in N. Ireland where it became an offence earlier this year). In my opinion decriminalization is a bit of a double edged sword. Should prostitution, as a business, be legitimized? As per previous post, I think it often encourages or normalises misogyny and objectification, as does porn.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 15314
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by mikenz66 » Sat May 23, 2015 10:21 pm

My understanding was that some aspects arestill illegal in the UK. Perhaps soliciting and/or brothels.
Perhaps it has changed. I do recall that about a decade ago there were some murders in some area (Oxford?) where the police had great difficulty getting either the workers or the clients to talk to them. This was in stark contrast to New Zealand where the police ran a drop-in caravan for people to report information on on a murder case, and where there is debate on how much support local councils should give for toilet and other support facilities in popular working areas. And where brothels have regular check by the health department, analogously to restaurants...

I'm not condoning these activities, but I certainly support what has happened here. What needs more work here is reducing danger by getting workers off the streets into safer venues.

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
rowboat
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Location: Brentwood Bay

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by rowboat » Sat May 23, 2015 10:29 pm

Mr Man wrote: In the UK it is not illegal to pay for sex (except in N. Ireland where it became an offence earlier this year). In my opinion decriminalization is a bit of a double edged sword. Should prostitution, as a business, be legitimized? As per previous post, I think it often encourages or normalises misogyny and objectification, as does porn.
Sweden's Prostitution Solution: Why Hasn't Anyone Tried This Before?

In a centuries deep sea of clichés despairing that 'prostitution will always be with us', one country's success stands out as a solitary beacon lighting the way. In just five years Sweden has dramatically reduced the number of its women in prostitution. In the capital city of Stockholm the number of women in street prostitution has been reduced by two thirds, and the number of johns has been reduced by 80%. There are other major Swedish cities where street prostitution has all but disappeared. Gone too, for the most part, are the renowned Swedish brothels and massage parlors which proliferated during the last three decades of the twentieth century when prostitution in Sweden was legal.

In addition, the number of foreign women now being trafficked into Sweden for sex is nil. The Swedish government estimates that in the last few years only 200 to 400 women and girls have been annually sex trafficked into Sweden, a figure that's negligible compared to the 15,000 to 17,000 females yearly sex trafficked into neighboring Finland. No other country, nor any other social experiment, has come anywhere near Sweden's promising results.

By what complex formula has Sweden managed this feat? Amazingly, Sweden's strategy isn't complex at all. It's tenets, in fact, seem so simple and so firmly anchored in common sense as to immediately spark the question, "Why hasn't anyone tried this before?"

Sweden's Groundbreaking 1999 Legislation

In 1999, after years of research and study, Sweden passed legislation that a) criminalizes the buying of sex, and b) decriminalizes the selling of sex. The novel rationale behind this legislation is clearly stated in the government's literature on the law:

"In Sweden prostitution is regarded as an aspect of male violence against women and children. It is officially acknowledged as a form of exploitation of women and children and constitutes a significant social problem... gender equality will remain unattainable so long as men buy, sell and exploit women and children by prostituting them."


In addition to the two pronged legal strategy, a third and essential element of Sweden's prostitution legislation provides for ample and comprehensive social service funds aimed at helping any prostitute who wants to get out, and additional funds to educate the public. As such, Sweden's unique strategy treats prostitution as a form of violence against women in which the men who exploit by buying sex are criminalized, the mostly female prostitutes are treated as victims who need help, and the public is educated in order to counteract the historical male bias that has long stultified thinking on prostitution. To securely anchor their view in firm legal ground, Sweden's prostitution legislation was passed as part and parcel of the country's 1999 omnibus violence against women legislation. [...]

Legalization and/or regulation of prostitution, according to the study, led to:

A dramatic increase in all facets of the sex industry,
A dramatic increase in the involvement of organized crime in the sex industry,
A dramatic increase in child prostitution,
An explosion in the number of foreign women and girls trafficked into the region, and
Indications of an increase in violence against women.
In the state of Victoria, Australia, where a system of legalized, regulated brothels was established, there was such an explosion in the number of brothels that it immediately overwhelmed the system's ability to regulate them, and just as quickly these brothels became a mire of organized crime, corruption, and related crimes. In addition, surveys of the prostitutes working under systems of legalization and regulation find that the prostitutes themselves continue to feel coerced, forced, and unsafe in the business.

(continued at link in headline)
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3114
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Mr Man » Sat May 23, 2015 10:53 pm

rowboat wrote:
Thanks. And for contrast there is Germany, which seems to have adopted the equivalent of battery farms for prostitution: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/11 ... -cold.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 3837
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Cremation Ground, Phrao District, Chiangmai

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Dhammanando » Sun May 24, 2015 12:03 am

mirco wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:As for prostitution, I really don’t understand why so many western Buddhists have this idée fixe about there being something inordinately evil in a man’s paying a woman to have sex with him.
That's rooted deep down in the history of christian marriage in Europe since the middle ages. It's not the paying, that makes it 'evil'.
Possibly, though the problem with this theory is that the sort of Buddhists who get apoplectic, or at least voice misgivings, when they hear me expressing a generally accepting view of prostitution are in most cases socially liberal enough that they don’t have any problem with people going into singles bars looking for a one-night stand. Now in the traditional Christian view, a one-night stand would be classed under “the sin of fornication” no less than prostitution would. Yet in its casualness and ephemerality a one-night stand is essentially the same as sex with a prostitute, the former being differentiated solely by the absence of payment and the fact that the woman is seldom subject to any economic duress.

User avatar
rowboat
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Location: Brentwood Bay

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by rowboat » Sun May 24, 2015 12:12 am

Mr Man wrote:
rowboat wrote:
Thanks. And for contrast there is Germany, which seems to have adopted the equivalent of battery farms for prostitution: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/11 ... -cold.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
Yes, since the reform of the German Prostitution Act in 2002 Germany has become the hub of sex tourism in Europe. These human battery farms (well said) are full of girls and women who have been trafficked from Eastern Europe by traditional organized crime groups. The brothels themselves are typically operated by the Hells Angels.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Ben » Sun May 24, 2015 4:15 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Prostitution is usually connected with criminality and other forms of unskilful behaviour (drugs, booze etc). Coercion and exploitation is often involved. I think it often encourages or normalises misogyny and objectification.
Certainly, this is a serious problem.

Which is why many countries, such as my own, have decriminalised it, so that the workers feel free to talk to the police about such things.

Curiously, this even led to a woman collecting an unemployment benefit having sex work suggested by her case manager, ...
I can't find an NZ report on this right now, but here's a German one: https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2012/01/0 ... stitution/


:anjali:
Mike
There have been instances in Australia in the past where people have been denied social security because they would not apply for sex work roles in brothels.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Ben » Sun May 24, 2015 5:11 am

Personally, I don't have a problem with people going into the sex industry if they wish. However, if they are coerced then it is akin to sex slavery. In this country, prostitution is highly regulated in most states and it has been successful in separating it from organised crime. The vast majority of legal brothels won't employ staff who are on drugs and the working boys and girls are, in general, a lot safer from physical violence than they were in the past.

What I find more concerning was a recent expose regarding the working conditions of itinerant foreign workers in Australia who work on farms supplying the supermarket and fast food restaurant chains. It's sad to learn that slave labour is going on in this country.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/ ... 227055.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for the morality of men going to a prostitute and the relative Kamma to that of a man having sex with one's wife - it's a hard one.
With metta,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

User avatar
mirco
Posts: 448
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by mirco » Sun May 24, 2015 8:08 am

Bundokji wrote:As any other job, you would find some prostitutes who are not happy about it
I know a few former prostitutes myself - and I know their stories.

Will you please get me just one prostitute, telling here how wholesome this job is to him/her.



Best Wishes
"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." - Bhikkhu Anālayo

User avatar
mirco
Posts: 448
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by mirco » Sun May 24, 2015 8:24 am

Ben wrote:In this country, prostitution is highly regulated in most states and
it has been successful in separating it from organised crime.
How do you know?


Best Wishes
"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." - Bhikkhu Anālayo

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 5647
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Aloka » Sun May 24, 2015 8:43 am

Dhammanado wrote: Unlike sex with one’s wife, after sex with a prostitute a man can just get up, take a shower and then go read a book or meditate or something. He doesn’t have to waste an hour lying in bed reluctantly feigning post-coital affection.
What an unflattering picture you paint of relationships with woman, Bhante.

Rather than leaping up to take a shower & "read a book or meditate or something," or staying in bed "feigning'"affection,
I think it's probably more usual that a man will roll over and lie on his back snoring loudly.

:anjali:

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23043
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by tiltbillings » Sun May 24, 2015 9:05 am

Aloka wrote:
Dhammanado wrote: Unlike sex with one’s wife, after sex with a prostitute a man can just get up, take a shower and then go read a book or meditate or something. He doesn’t have to waste an hour lying in bed reluctantly feigning post-coital affection.
What an unflattering picture you paint of relationships with woman, Bhante.

Rather than leaping up to take a shower & "read a book or meditate or something," or staying in bed "feigning'"affection,
I think it's probably more usual that a man will roll over and lie on his back snoring loudly.

:anjali:
Hilarious.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Feathers
Posts: 260
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:14 pm

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Feathers » Sun May 24, 2015 9:24 am

Dhammanando wrote:
mirco wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:As for prostitution, I really don’t understand why so many western Buddhists have this idée fixe about there being something inordinately evil in a man’s paying a woman to have sex with him.
That's rooted deep down in the history of christian marriage in Europe since the middle ages. It's not the paying, that makes it 'evil'.
Possibly, though the problem with this theory is that the sort of Buddhists who get apoplectic, or at least voice misgivings, when they hear me expressing a generally accepting view of prostitution are in most cases socially liberal enough that they don’t have any problem with people going into singles bars looking for a one-night stand. Now in the traditional Christian view, a one-night stand would be classed under “the sin of fornication” no less than prostitution would. Yet in its casualness and ephemerality a one-night stand is essentially the same as sex with a prostitute, the former being differentiated solely by the absence of payment and the fact that the woman is seldom subject to any economic duress.
You phrase it as though there is little difference between a one night stand and sleeping with a prostitute, then include that . . . can you not see the huge difference? Yes, in terms of the purchaser (lust, attachment etc.) there might not be much difference, but in terms of the suffering caused . . . a casual one night stand between two free individuals may or may not be unskillful, but at least they're both having fun and doing it willingly!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dhammawheel thread on tools for managing depression

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 1291
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Bundokji » Sun May 24, 2015 12:47 pm

mirco wrote:
Bundokji wrote:As any other job, you would find some prostitutes who are not happy about it
I know a few former prostitutes myself - and I know their stories.

Will you please get me just one prostitute, telling here how wholesome this job is to him/her.



Best Wishes
Hello :smile:

Not long ago, hundreds of Australian sex workers decided to go public using social media, and they posted some messages on twitter such as:

"College student. Aspiring lawyer. Activist. Daughter, sister, sex worker. I don't need rescuing."

The full article is on the BBC website

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-32165949" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The whole point of the article is that many sex workers are getting fed up with the generalized way many view this profession, and I think they have a good point.

I would not say that prostitution is wholesome, but it isn't worse than many of the behaviours that we consider normal just because the vast majority of us do it, that would include marriage as Dhammanado mentioned, and as Ben pointed out, there are many jobs with a worse working conditions. In fact, if you are a leftist/communist you might view all wage working as a form of slavery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would go to the extent to say that in some countries where a man has to pay huge amount of money to his future wife and her family, the only difference between this kind of marriage and prostitution is that a sex worker sell her self retail, and the other one wholesale! Maybe prostitution is a bit less harmful because the chance to make kids is much lower!

I knew some girls when I was a student who go out to the bar almost every night with no money at all, and dance with the guys in order to seduce them and get free drinks! They don't sleep with them, they just dance with them dirty dancing and then ask them to buy them drinks, and after that they laugh among themselves and call the boys idiots! Now, this kind of behaviour is some how tolerated and less criticized than prostitution. The only difference (at least in my mind) is that the sex worker is more honest in what she is doing, but cant you see the social hypocrisy here.

Every one speaks of misogyny, but no speaks of misandry. This is another example of bias and hypocrisy in my opinion. Many of the men who use prostitutes are old, ugly, maybe they don't have nice personalities, but none of these things are of their choice. If people can choose, they would choose to be young all the time, good looking with an attractive personality. We find it quite normal to discriminate against them based upon their looks or age, this is for us morally OK, and we want to portray the female to be always the victim!

You can use Google to read about a lot of stories of western men, who travel to south east Asia, and fall in love with sex workers and decided to marry them, or support them financially or helping them to have a new life. You would be surprised to read that most stories didn't conclude in a very nice way! Believe it or not, most prostitutes become sex addicts and they are unable to conduct a normal life anymore which is a very sad thing. But it also reveals that many of them enjoy what they are doing! They don't only look for money, they also look for good sex.

Peace
ولَرُبَّ نَازِلَةٍ يَضِيقُ بهَا الفَضَـــــا *** ذَرْعًا؛ وعِندَ الله مِنهَا المَخْرَجُ
عَظُمَت فَلَما استُحكِمت حَلقاتها *** فُرِجت وكَانَ يَظُنُّهَا لا تُفْرَجُ
لا تَيْأَسَنَ فَكُلُ عُسْــــــرٍ بَعْــدَهُ *** يُسر يُسرّ ُبِهِ الفُؤَادُ المُحَرَّجُ
واصبر فَإِنَّ الصَــــــبر في الدُّنْيَا *** نَيْلُ المُنَى والقَصْدُ نِعْمَ المْنهجُ

chownah
Posts: 6856
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by chownah » Sun May 24, 2015 2:18 pm

Believe it or not, most prostitutes become sex addicts
This seems to go against the usual perception that after a couple of months of several sex partners a day a sex worker will lose any satisfaction in their sexual encounters.
chownah

User avatar
mirco
Posts: 448
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by mirco » Sun May 24, 2015 3:20 pm

Dhamma Greetings Bundokji :smile: ,
Bundokji wrote:Not long ago, hundreds of Australian sex workers decided to go public using social media, and they posted some messages on twitter such as:
"College student. Aspiring lawyer. Activist. Daughter, sister, sex worker. I don't need rescuing."
The full article is on the BBC website http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-32165949" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
[...]
You can use Google to read about a lot of stories of western men, who travel to south east Asia, and fall in love with sex workers and decided to marry them, or support them financially or helping them to have a new life. You would be surprised to read that most stories didn't conclude in a very nice way! Believe it or not, most prostitutes become sex addicts and they are unable to conduct a normal life anymore which is a very sad thing. But it also reveals that many of them enjoy what they are doing! They don't only look for money, they also look for good sex.
[...]
I would go to the extent to say that in some countries where a man has to pay huge amount of money to his future wife and her family, the only difference between this kind of marriage and prostitution is that a sex worker sell her self retail, and the other one wholesale! Maybe prostitution is a bit less harmful because the chance to make kids is much lower!
Thank you very much for your point of view and for the new input.

Bundokji wrote:I knew some girls when I was a student who go out to the bar almost every night with no money at all, and dance with the guys in order to seduce them and get free drinks! They don't sleep with them, they just dance with them dirty dancing and then ask them to buy them drinks, and after that they laugh among themselves and call the boys idiots! Now, this kind of behaviour is some how tolerated and less criticized than prostitution. The only difference (at least in my mind) is that the sex worker is more honest in what she is doing, but cant you see the social hypocrisy here.
Tolerated by whom?


Best Wishes!
"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." - Bhikkhu Anālayo

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 3837
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Cremation Ground, Phrao District, Chiangmai

Re: Sexual misconduct and prostitute

Post by Dhammanando » Sun May 24, 2015 4:42 pm

Feathers wrote:You phrase it as though there is little difference between a one night stand and sleeping with a prostitute, then include that . . . can you not see the huge difference? Yes, in terms of the purchaser (lust, attachment etc.) there might not be much difference, but in terms of the suffering caused . . . a casual one night stand between two free individuals may or may not be unskillful, but at least they're both having fun and doing it willingly!!!
I stated that the two acts were essentially similar in their ephemerality and casualness, which is to say, my comparison was confined to the factors of duration and significance (or momentousness).

Now as for the “fun” factor, my omission of this was not because I consider this difference to be a slight one. But nor do I agree with you that it’s a huge one. As I see it, the difference in the two cases is simply an incommensurable one. The female swingers enjoying a one-night stand and the sex-workers servicing their clients obtain two entirely different kinds of “fun” that cannot really be compared. The swingers’ fun is that of bodily pleasure. The sex-workers’ (setting aside those of them who get aroused by having sex with strangers) is the pleasure that they get from having exchanged that which they valued less (their time) for that which they valued more (their client’s money). Their “fun”, in other words, consists in the mental satisfaction generated by contemplation of a successfully concluded free-market transaction that they deem to have been favourable to their interests.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Nwad and 87 guests