Five aggregate of clinging

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SarathW
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Re: Can you describe the five aggregate in terms of a newly born child?

Post by SarathW »

What is the difference between Thanha and Upaddana?
Can we say pañc Thanaha kkhandha?
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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acinteyyo
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Re: Can you describe the five aggregate in terms of a newly born child?

Post by acinteyyo »

SarathW wrote:What is the difference between Thanha and Upaddana?
tanhā means "craving". There are different forms of craving but the most general categories are craving for sensuality (kāma-tanhā), craving for becoming (bhava-tanhā) and craving for non-becoming (vibhava-tanhā).
SN22.22 wrote:"What is the holding on to the burden? The answer is that it is that craving which gives rise to fresh rebirth and, bound up with lust and greed, now here now there finds ever fresh delight. It is sensual craving, craving for existence, craving for non-existence. This, monks, is called 'the holding on to the burden."
Craving for sensuality can be described further in terms of the six senses.
Craving for form (rūpa-tanhā), craving for sounds (sadda-tanhā), craving for smell (gandha-tanhā), craving for taste (rasa-tanhā), craving for tactile sensations (potthabba-tanhā) and craving for mind-objects (dhamma-tanhā).
SN 12.2 wrote:"And what is craving? These six are classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for smells, craving for tastes, craving for tactile sensations, craving for ideas. This is called craving.
Craving for becoming could be described as the desire to be, whereas craving for non-becoming could be described as the desire not to be.
There are 108 forms of craving which further illustrates that.
AN 4.199 wrote:"And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal? There being 'I am,' there comes to be 'I am here,' there comes to be 'I am like this' ... 'I am otherwise' ... 'I am bad' ... 'I am good' ... 'I might be' ... 'I might be here' ... 'I might be like this' ... 'I might be otherwise' ... 'May I be' ... 'May I be here' ... 'May I be like this' ... 'May I be otherwise' ... 'I will be' ... 'I will be here' ... 'I will be like this' ... 'I will be otherwise.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal.

"And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external? There being 'I am because of this (or: by means of this),' there comes to be 'I am here because of this,' there comes to be 'I am like this because of this' ... 'I am otherwise because of this' ... 'I am bad because of this' ... 'I am good because of this' ... 'I might be because of this' ... 'I might be here because of this' ... 'I might be like this because of this' ... 'I might be otherwise because of this' ... 'May I be because of this' ... 'May I be here because of this' ... 'May I be like this because of this' ... 'May I be otherwise because of this' ... 'I will be because of this' ... 'I will be here because of this' ... 'I will be like this because of this' ... 'I will be otherwise because of this.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external.

"Thus there are 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal and 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external. These are called the 36 craving-verbalizations. Thus, with 36 craving-verbalizations of this sort in the past, 36 in the future, and 36 in the present, there are 108 craving-verbalizations.
upādāna means "clinging". Clinging is any desire, passion related to the phenomena suitably to cling to.
So one clings to the phenomena that constitute the five clinging-aggregates. That is the reason why the groups are called clinging-aggregates.
I also like the translation "five cling-to-aggregates".
SN22.121 wrote:"And what, monks, are clingable phenomena? What is clinging?
"Form is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire-passion related to it, is clinging related to it.
"Feeling is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire-passion related to it, is clinging related to it.
"Perception is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire-passion related to it, is clinging related to it.
"Fabrications are clingable phenomena. Any desire-passion related to them, is clinging related to them.
"Consciousness is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire-passion related to it, is clinging related to it.
"These are called clingable phenomena. This is clinging."
One clings to those phenomena because of craving (tanhā), because one craves for sensuality or craves for becoming or non-becoming.
SN12.2 wrote:From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging.
We could say that because of ignorance and the resulting personaltiy-view one clings to those phenomena one identfies with as "me, mine, I am this" or all the forms mentioned in the 108 cravings formula, because one desires to be or become them or one desires not to be or become them or desires to experience them in order to indulge in sensuality or hopes not to have to experience them and so on with many feedbackloops that support the underlying identification to be what one clings to and craves for.

The whole process is far from easy to explain in simple terms and would go beyond the scope of this short explanation. I already notice that my posts are getting longer and longer, so I'll try to come to an end ;)

Craving comes from feeling and is closely related to pleasant feeling, painful feeling and neither-pleasant-nor-painful feelings in its forming.
SN12.2 wrote:From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.
There are also different forms to describe clinging in detail. Clinging for sensuality (kāmūpādāna), clinging to views (ditthūpādāna), clinging rites and rituals (sīlabbatūpādāna) and clinging to the belief in a self (attavādūpādāna).

I don't want to drift off-topic to so I'll focus on attavādūpādāna for your next question.
SarathW wrote:Can we say pañc Thanaha kkhandha?
I tend to say no, we can't, but with a silent "maybe yes". Because what is desired aren't really the aggregates form, feeling, perception, formation and consciousness itself. The aggregates are merely the platform to satisfy the craving for becoming and non-becoming.
The most fundamental clinging (upādāna) is "attavādūpādāna" the "clinging to the belief in a self" and if a personality (sakkaya) is formed due to that underlying belief, there comes a desire for sensuality.

That in turn indirectly leads to craving of the aggregates or rather the aggregates content, but as I tried to point out, just because one already is entangled deelpy in a thicket of wrong views and right in the middle of confusion.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Five aggregate of clinging

Post by SarathW »

Good video Dhamma discussion about five clinging aggregate by Ven. Bodhi.
Very clear and in plain English and must watch. :)
Catch his infectious laugh! :D

Nibbaba

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfsStm5zkQ0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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