New Translation Project from Sutta Central

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mikenz66
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Re: New Translation Project from Sutta Central

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:42 am

On a Pali (or Chinese) page go to:
Menu (three bars) -> Controls -> Pali-English

Then you can hover over the text.

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Mike

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samseva
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Re: New Translation Project from Sutta Central

Post by samseva » Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:00 pm

mikenz66 wrote:On a Pali (or Chinese) page go to:
Menu (three bars) -> Controls -> Pali-English

Then you can hover over the text.
Thank you Mike.

Do you know where the translations/definitions are sourced?

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Re: New Translation Project from Sutta Central

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:58 pm

No, sorry. I only know what's posted there. You might ask over there:

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/pa ... ary/1921/5

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Re: New Translation Project from Sutta Central

Post by Trindolex » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:00 am

Regarding the link for the new translation for MN 10, is this Ven. Sujato's work? I'm a bit surprised to say the least, for example:
"Mindful, they breath in; mindful, they breath out."
isn't it correct to say "breathe" rather than "breath".

Also,
'It is like a skilled carpenter or carpenter’s
apprentice: when making a deep cut they would
clearly know ‘I am making a deep cut’, and when
making a shallow cut they would clearly know ‘I am
making a shallow cut’.
but the simile in the sutta is of a turner making a long or short turn. Turning is a practice of engraving pottery, not sawing a plank of wood, the simile which comes from the Visuddhimagga in illustrating this very same passage. I understand that turning is an obscure practice but we are really changing the meaning here. It's probably trivial but its a dangerous trend.

Sankhara translated as choices? Sounds pretty weak compared to volition. Dhamma as principles? Leaving samadhi untranslated is a very good choice, might have been good to the same to Dhammas?
"Here, a monastic clearly knows the eye, sights, and
the fetter that arises dependent on both of these;"
I was looking forward to cakkhu being translated as sight, not eye (eye= akkhi), and all the senses similarly. Especially nose is evident. Nose is nasika, ghana is the sense of smell.

I like the sensual and spiritual for the two types of feeling however.

But its good that he's decided to do it anyway since it will be easy to point people who ask me about the Dhamma to the free website rather than a collection of books worth about 200 USD. Maybe the plain style will grow on me...

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Re: New Translation Project from Sutta Central

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:19 pm

Some interesting discussion about translation choices:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/a- ... er/2277/17

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Mike

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Re: New Translation Project from Sutta Central

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:30 pm

A few more terms:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/a- ... terms/2333

Since this project will most likely eclipse Access to Insight in a couple of years, if you have opinions on terminology, you might want to express it there. It's a useful opportunity to ditch some of the more antiquated aspects of the English terminology developed by PTS and in Sri Lanka, which culminated in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations of the MN, SN, and DN.

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Re: New Translation Project from Sutta Central

Post by samseva » Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:09 am

mikenz66 wrote:A few more terms:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/a- ... terms/2333

Since this project will most likely eclipse Access to Insight in a couple of years, if you have opinions on terminology, you might want to express it there. It's a useful opportunity to ditch some of the more antiquated aspects of the English terminology developed by PTS and in Sri Lanka, which culminated in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations of the MN, SN, and DN.
Thanks for the heads up.

However, I think "ditching" some of the PTS terminology, which does have its value, is a slight mischoice of words. :)

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Re: New Translation Project from Sutta Central

Post by Zom » Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:46 am

Since this project will most likely eclipse Access to Insight in a couple of years, if you have opinions on terminology, you might want to express it there. It's a useful opportunity to ditch some of the more antiquated aspects of the English terminology developed by PTS and in Sri Lanka, which culminated in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations of the MN, SN, and DN.
So far from what I see, I like good old "PTS Sri Lanka" terms more. Just give me full DN in such translation and I'm 100% satisfied -) (well, 90%... the rest 10 goes to KN) :D

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Re: New Translation Project from Sutta Central

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:08 pm

Hi Zom,

Yes, personally I have some sympathy for that approach. A DN and the key KN texts with Bikkhu Bodhi's terminology would be what I would personally find most useful, since I can recognise the terms and come to my own conclusions.

However, Ven Sujato's aim is to make the suttas more accessible to people who don't want to delve into the Pali details so much. It may or may not work, but it would be good if there was some input, as it may well become the standard for internet-based readers...

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Re: New Translation Project from Sutta Central

Post by samseva » Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:24 pm

mikenz66 wrote:However, Ven Sujato's aim is to make the suttas more accessible to people who don't want to delve into the Pali details so much. It may or may not work, but it would be good if there was some input, as it may well become the standard for internet-based readers...
Ah, that is good to know and explains the choice of terms. Ven. Sujato's idea of translating the Suttas in a way that is more accessible for the general person is a good idea.
mikenz66 wrote:Since this project will most likely eclipse Access to Insight in a couple of years
With the combination of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations, the Pāḷi versions of the texts, the mouse-over dictionary and the use of diacritics (so important), I don't see why it hasn't already.

By the way, do you know if all of Bhikkhi Bodhi's translations will be available on SuttaCentral?

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Re: New Translation Project from Sutta Central

Post by Zom » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:32 pm

However, Ven Sujato's aim is to make the suttas more accessible to people who don't want to delve into the Pali details so much. It may or may not work, but it would be good if there was some input, as it may well become the standard for internet-based readers.
..

I don't mind, but it seems to me they are trying to reinvent many good old terms simply because they don't want new translations to look like the old ones. My opinion is that it is just impossible to make "more accessible" translations - you'll still have to read many suttas and commentaries to understand most of them. This is true even for most famous ones like nibbana, kamma, jhana, samsara, enlightenment (ect) not to speak about "technical" ones like sankhara or vedana or anusaya for example.

If I were to make such "new" translations, I'd do so called "artistic translation", which shows the idea, but is innacurate in "pali details". Maybe I would shorten some passages (like standard "greetings" formulas) or retell dialogues using modern language schemes, and so on. If you want to "modernize" old texts, you have to rework them completely using modern language features, structures, sentences, phrases... not just particular words.

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Re: New Translation Project from Sutta Central

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:08 am

Hi Zom,

I think that's what this translation of the Dhammacakka sutta attempts to do:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/dr ... acakka/439

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Re: New Translation Project from Sutta Central

Post by Zom » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:42 am

Not exactly. It still follows archaic style - word by word, sentence by sentence, and in this sense is the same as all translations made before, only some words are different.

If one wants to make a really "modern" translation (so the text would fit everyone), one must change the pattern itself. I heard many times like people said: "text structure is really weird - I can't read such a thing". It is not that they complained of words/terms. They complained of the text itself.

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Re: New Translation Project from Sutta Central

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:56 pm

Good points, perhaps worth making to Ven Sujato.

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Re: New Translation Project from Sutta Central

Post by Bakmoon » Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:40 pm

Looking over that draft translation again made me really appreciate some of Ajahn Sujato's careful word choice. His rendering of Nibbana as quenching captures the connotations of the term perfectly in my opinion. It signifies both the putting out of a fire, so it captures the literal sense, but also clearly indicates the ending of thirst, which is of course etymologically related with the word Tanha.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

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