A list of Theravada teachers that teach a true self?

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identification
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A list of Theravada teachers that teach a true self?

Post by identification » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:45 pm

I have heard about some people teaching that the Buddha taught no self to get rid of our false sense of self for the purpose of realizing our true self. Does anyone have the names of the teachers that teach this way and any reading material from them?

soapy3
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Re: A list of Theravada teachers that teach a true self?

Post by soapy3 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:59 pm

I never heard of this, if you find out please post the list here.

Bakmoon
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Re: A list of Theravada teachers that teach a true self?

Post by Bakmoon » Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:25 pm

Quite a lot of the teachers in the Thai Forest tradition back in Thailand teach about an original mind. Maybe that's what you heard about. Ajahn Mahabooa was the most prominent teacher of this in recent years.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

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Re: A list of Theravada teachers that teach a true self?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:35 pm

Hi Identification,

You may be thinking of the comments starting around here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p328676
in the "Rebirth vs Reincarnation..." thread.
See, in particular:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p329417

It's not quite as simple as a "true self", it's more subtle than that.

:anjali:
Mike

identification
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Re: A list of Theravada teachers that teach a true self?

Post by identification » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:27 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Identification,

You may be thinking of the comments starting around here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p328676
in the "Rebirth vs Reincarnation..." thread.
See, in particular:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p329417

It's not quite as simple as a "true self", it's more subtle than that.

:anjali:
Mike
Hi Mike

This is a copy paste from beginning of Ajahn Thanissaros Not-Self strategy pdf on accesstoinsight.

As the Buddha once said, the teaching he most frequently gave to his
students was this: All fabrications are inconstant; all phenomena are not-self
(anatta) (MN 35). Many people have interpreted this second statement as
meaning that there is no self. Others, however, have noticed statements in the
Pali Canon—our earliest extant record of the Buddha’s teachings—that refer to
the idea of self in a positive manner, as when the Buddha stated that the self is its
own mainstay (Dhp 160) or when he encouraged a group of young men—who
were searching for a woman who had stolen their belongings—to search for the
self instead (Mv.I.14.4). From these statements, these readers conclude that the
statement, “All phenomena are not-self,” is meant to clear away attachment to a
false view of self so that an experience of the true self can be attained.
The debate between these two positions has lasted for millennia, with each
side able to cite additional passages from the Canon to prove the other side
wrong. Even now, both sides continue to find adherents attracted to their
arguments, but neither side has had the final word.

He is referring to a whole group of people on the opposite end of the orthodox Buddhist view about there being absolutely no self. He said there have been debates about this going on for a millennia. Who are these people? Who are the teachers in this group with this position? Who are the people on the (there is a self) side of the debate? I also read in an Ajahn Maha Bua thread somewhere here on dhammawheel that there have been teachers openly teaching that there is a self in Thailand. And I have read that the Dharmakaya teaches nirvana is the true self so I guess I should say who else is teaching it besides the Dharmakaya.

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Re: A list of Theravada teachers that teach a true self?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:40 pm

identification wrote:Does anyone have the names of the teachers that teach this way and any reading material from them?
I don't think any of these would have described themselves as "Theravada teachers", but they are all prominent in arguing for an interpretation of anattā in the Pali suttas like that which you describe.

Theosophically influenced:
C.A.F. Rhys Davids
Christmas Humphreys
I.B. Horner

Guénonist:
Ananda Coomaraswamy

Vedantists:
K. Bhattacharya
S. Radhakrishnan
R.P. Chowdhury
J.G. Jennings

Idiosyncratic:
R. Zaehner
Joacquin Pérez-Remón

Mahayanist (votary of the Mahaparinirvana Sutra):
Tony Page

identification
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Re: A list of Theravada teachers that teach a true self?

Post by identification » Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:54 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
identification wrote:Does anyone have the names of the teachers that teach this way and any reading material from them?
I don't think any of these would have described themselves as "Theravada teachers", but they are all prominent in arguing for an interpretation of anattā in the Pali suttas like that which you describe.

Theosophically influenced:
C.A.F. Rhys Davids
Christmas Humphreys
I.B. Horner

Guénonist:
Ananda Coomaraswamy

Vedantists:
K. Bhattacharya
S. Radhakrishnan
R.P. Chowdhury
J.G. Jennings

Idiosyncratic:
R. Zaehner
Joacquin Pérez-Remón

Mahayanist (votary of the Mahaparinirvana Sutra):
Tony Page
Thank you Bhante :bow:

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Re: A list of Theravada teachers that teach a true self?

Post by Goofaholix » Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:59 pm

identification wrote:taught no self to get rid of our false sense of self for the purpose of realizing our true self
Some/many Hindu based teachers teach the above, and I think some promote the idea that the Buddha taught it also in much the same way as they promote the idea that Buddhism is a branch of Hinduism.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Re: A list of Theravada teachers that teach a true self?

Post by DNS » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:30 pm

I think Ajahn Mun and Ajahn Boowa would also count as teachers of "true self".

Jack Kornfield

Pudgalavāda school of Buddhism

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mikenz66
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Re: A list of Theravada teachers that teach a true self?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:46 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:I think Ajahn Mun and Ajahn Boowa would also count as teachers of "true self".
That's the gist of the links I gave above referring to Thai Forest monks:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=335039#p335002
It's not an explicit "true self" idea, it's more subtle than that.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: A list of Theravada teachers that teach a true self?

Post by DNS » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:56 pm

mikenz66 wrote: That's the gist of the links I gave above referring to Thai Forest monks:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=335039#p335002
It's not an explicit "true self" idea, it's more subtle than that.
Thanks and that would explain why Kornfield leans in that direction since he trained in the Thai forest tradition as a monk in Thailand.

And yet there are others like Ajahn Brahm and Ajahn Sujato who are also trained in the Thai forest tradition who appear to reject the so-called "true self" and stick firmly to anatta.

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Re: A list of Theravada teachers that teach a true self?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:44 am

Yes, that's what Ven Dhammanando said here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p328676
Dhammanando wrote: It's uncontroversial that consciousness is involved with rebirth, just not in the way that Sāti thought it was. Bhante Sujato, as far as I know, doesn't subscribe to Sāti's view that one and same consciousness persists through time and undergoes rebirth. Quite the contrary in fact — in his blog he's at pains to repudiate the atman-like consciousness view that's so prevalent among monks in his tradition.
See these entries in Sujato's Blog:
On the Radiant Mind
Nibbana is not viññāṇa. Really, it just isn’t.

See this elaboration: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p329417

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: A list of Theravada teachers that teach a true self?

Post by Dhamma_Bum » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:56 pm

How does teachings fo "the unconditioned" fit in here? What is unconditioned?

Is Jung's collective unconscious a melting pot of all of our kamma that gives rise to beings? This unconscious sounds like samsara and nibbana is release from it.

Could more than one person have a share in a past life?

Sorry for disjointed and vague questions I'm short on time

Danny

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Re: A list of Theravada teachers that teach a true self?

Post by soapy3 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:45 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: That's the gist of the links I gave above referring to Thai Forest monks:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=335039#p335002
It's not an explicit "true self" idea, it's more subtle than that.
Thanks and that would explain why Kornfield leans in that direction since he trained in the Thai forest tradition as a monk in Thailand.

And yet there are others like Ajahn Brahm and Ajahn Sujato who are also trained in the Thai forest tradition who appear to reject the so-called "true self" and stick firmly to anatta.
I had that exact thought as I was reading this thread.

I went to several talks AB did while he was in the Bay Area. I learned at his Spirit Rock appearance that both he and Jack Kornfield were both students of Ajahn Chah. At his earlier appearance at the Wisdom Pub panel discussion on mindfulness AB stated plainly and emphatically that he believed that nibanna "is IT", that nothing more remains after that.

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Re: A list of Theravada teachers that teach a true self?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:00 pm

Soapy3 wrote:I went to several talks AB did while he was in the Bay Area. I learned at his Spirit Rock appearance that both he and Jack Kornfield were both students of Ajahn Chah. At his earlier appearance at the Wisdom Pub panel discussion on mindfulness AB stated plainly and emphatically that he believed that nibanna "is IT", that nothing more remains after that.
See Ven Dhammanando's comments here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p329417
Dhammanando wrote: As for the non-Thai (i.e. mostly western) ajahns, with these you can predict it with a fairly high degree of accuracy from the monk’s biography. The non-eternalists for the most part comprise those who had some background in relatively orthodox strains of Theravada Buddhism before they got mixed up with the forest tradition. Examples would include Ajahns Khemadhammo, Tiradhammo and Sujāto, who all began as Mahasi practitioners; Ajahn Viradhammo, who began as a Ñāṇavīra enthusiast after Sāmaṇera Bodhesako introduced him to the man’s teachings; and Ajahn Brahmavamso, who began with the Samatha Trust, a British group that combines samatha meditation with Abhidhamma study. All of these appear to have avoided the semi-eternalist error that’s endemic to the Thai forest tradition
You can see from this, and from listening to, or reading, their teachings, that these Western monks have quite different approaches and backgrounds, despite being nominally "Ajahn Chah students". On the practice side, of the two I've met, Ajahn Brahm teaches deep jhana, and Ajahn Tiradhammo a more Burmese-Vipassana type of approach (which I recall he said he got from reading "The Heart of Buddhist Meditation" by Nyanaponika Thera).

:anjali:
Mike

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