Not attaining stream-entry

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Not attaining stream-entry

Post by Crazy cloud » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:16 am

Sovatthika wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:02 am
i don't believe you.
That can also be understood as calling me (and Ajahn Amaro) a liar, and its also in my opinion totally unnecessary - its ok to dont belive, but rudeness is making bad kamma ..

Im finished with this debate, and be well!

Ambalatthika-rahulovada Sutta: Instructions to Rahula at Mango Stone
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2006
Alternate format: [SuttaReadings.net icon]
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha, at the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Ground.

At that time Ven. Rahula[1] was staying at the Mango Stone. Then the Blessed One, arising from his seclusion in the late afternoon, went to where Ven. Rahula was staying at the Mango Stone. Ven. Rahula saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, set out a seat & water for washing the feet. The Blessed One sat down on the seat set out and, having sat down, washed his feet. Ven. Rahula, bowing down to the Blessed One, sat to one side.

Then the Blessed One, having left a little bit of water in the water dipper, said to Ven. Rahula, "Rahula, do you see this little bit of left-over water remaining in the water dipper?"

"Yes, sir."

"That's how little of a contemplative[2] there is in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie."

Having tossed away the little bit of left-over water, the Blessed One said to Ven. Rahula, "Rahula, do you see how this little bit of left-over water is tossed away?"

"Yes, sir."

"Rahula, whatever there is of a contemplative in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie is tossed away just like that."

Having turned the water dipper upside down, the Blessed One said to Ven. Rahula, "Rahula, do you see how this water dipper is turned upside down?"

"Yes, sir."

"Rahula, whatever there is of a contemplative in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie is turned upside down just like that."

Having turned the water dipper right-side up, the Blessed One said to Ven. Rahula, "Rahula, do you see how empty & hollow this water dipper is?"

"Yes, sir."

"Rahula, whatever there is of a contemplative in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie is empty & hollow just like that.

"Rahula, it's like a royal elephant: immense, pedigreed, accustomed to battles, its tusks like chariot poles. Having gone into battle, it uses its forefeet & hindfeet, its forequarters & hindquarters, its head & ears & tusks & tail, but keeps protecting its trunk. The elephant trainer notices that and thinks, 'This royal elephant has not given up its life to the king.' But when the royal elephant... having gone into battle, uses its forefeet & hindfeet, its forequarters & hindquarters, its head & ears & tusks & tail & his trunk, the trainer notices that and thinks, 'This royal elephant has given up its life to the king. There is nothing it will not do.'

"In the same way, Rahula, when anyone feels no shame in telling a deliberate lie, there is no evil, I tell you, he will not do. Thus, Rahula, you should train yourself, 'I will not tell a deliberate lie even in jest.'

"What do you think, Rahula: What is a mirror for?"

"For reflection, sir."

"In the same way, Rahula, bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions are to be done with repeated reflection.

"Whenever you want to do a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I want to do — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then any bodily action of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then any bodily action of that sort is fit for you to do.

"While you are doing a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I am doing — is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both... you should give it up. But if on reflection you know that it is not... you may continue with it.

"Having done a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental qualities.

"Whenever you want to do a verbal action, you should reflect on it: 'This verbal action I want to do — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful verbal action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful verbal action with painful consequences, painful results, then any verbal action of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful verbal action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then any verbal action of that sort is fit for you to do.

"While you are doing a verbal action, you should reflect on it: 'This verbal action I am doing — is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful verbal action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both... you should give it up. But if on reflection you know that it is not... you may continue with it.

"Having done a verbal action, you should reflect on it: 'This verbal action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful verbal action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful verbal action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful verbal action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental qualities.

"Whenever you want to do a mental action, you should reflect on it: 'This mental action I want to do — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful mental action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful mental action with painful consequences, painful results, then any mental action of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful mental action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then any mental action of that sort is fit for you to do.

"While you are doing a mental action, you should reflect on it: 'This mental action I am doing — is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful mental action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both... you should give it up. But if on reflection you know that it is not... you may continue with it.

"Having done a mental action, you should reflect on it: 'This mental action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful mental action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful mental action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should feel distressed, ashamed, & disgusted with it. Feeling distressed, ashamed, & disgusted with it, you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful mental action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental qualities.

"Rahula, all those brahmans & contemplatives in the course of the past who purified their bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions, did it through repeated reflection on their bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions in just this way.

"All those brahmans & contemplatives in the course of the future who will purify their bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions, will do it through repeated reflection on their bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions in just this way.

"All those brahmans & contemplatives at present who purify their bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions, do it through repeated reflection on their bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions in just this way.

"Thus, Rahula, you should train yourself: 'I will purify my bodily actions through repeated reflection. I will purify my verbal actions through repeated reflection. I will purify my mental actions through repeated reflection.' That's how you should train yourself."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Ven. Rahula delighted in the Blessed One's words.

Notes

1.
Rahula: the Buddha's son, who according to the Commentary was seven years old when this discourse was delivered to him.
2.
Samañña. Throughout ancient cultures, the terminology of music was used to describe the moral quality of people and actions. Discordant intervals or poorly-tuned musical instruments were metaphors for evil; harmonious intervals and well-tuned instruments, metaphors for good. In Pali, the term sama — "even" — described an instrument tuned on-pitch. There is a famous passage (in AN 6.55) where the Buddha reminds Sona Kolivisa — who had been over-exerting himself in the practice — that a lute sounds appealing only if the strings are neither too taut or too lax, but "evenly" tuned. This image would have special resonances with the Buddha's teaching on the middle way. It also adds meaning to the term samana — monk or contemplative — which the texts frequently mention as being derived from sama. The word samañña — "evenness," the quality of being in tune — also means the quality of being a contemplative: The true contemplative is always in tune with what is proper and good.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: Not attaining stream-entry

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:28 am

anyway, i think this was the sutta i was looking for. of course, i've read instructions to rāhula, and i think it is both compassionate and skillful to tell you what you are doing is utterly fruitless.
Thus have I heard. At one time the Blessed One was dwelling at Bārāṇasī in the Deer Park at Isipatana. There the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus of the group of five thus: "Bhikkhus, these two extremes should not be followed by one gone forth (into the homeless life). What two? That which is this pursuit of sensual happiness in sense pleasures, which is low, vulgar, the way of the ordinary person, ignoble, not connected to the goal; and that which is this pursuit of self-mortification, which is painful, ignoble, not connected to the goal. Bhikkhus, without veering towards either of these two extremes, the One Attuned to Reality has awakened to the middle way, which gives rise to vision, which gives rise to knowledge, which leads to peace, to higher knowledge, to full awakening, to Nibbāna.
-- SN 56.11 (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .harv.html)
and i simply refuse to believe an accredited monk such as ajahn amaro would be so woefully ignorant as to encourage such extreme asceticism. finished with what debate? the matter is certain
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

Derek
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:31 pm

Re: Not attaining stream-entry

Post by Derek » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:58 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:07 pm
the Sarakāni Sutta also confirms that (although the language in it is ambiguous as to the faith-follower), but for some reason it seems "too easy": attaining stream-entry seems to me like a monumental event that is not based on faith or discernment, but on direct knowledge.
The Stream-Entry Collection (SN 55) contains both early and late material. The practitioner definition of stream-entry is the earlier. The faith definition dates from a later period, by which time "Buddhism" had been formalized into an organized religion.

Garrib
Posts: 464
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: Not attaining stream-entry

Post by Garrib » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:58 pm

Derek wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:58 pm
Nicolas wrote:
Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:07 pm
the Sarakāni Sutta also confirms that (although the language in it is ambiguous as to the faith-follower), but for some reason it seems "too easy": attaining stream-entry seems to me like a monumental event that is not based on faith or discernment, but on direct knowledge.
The Stream-Entry Collection (SN 55) contains both early and late material. The practitioner definition of stream-entry is the earlier. The faith definition dates from a later period, by which time "Buddhism" had been formalized into an organized religion.
Do you know of any research literature that would support this conclusion? Thank you.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1396
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Not attaining stream-entry

Post by cappuccino » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:19 pm

But he has just these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. Yet if he has merely faith, merely affection for the Tathaagata, that man, too, does not go to... states of woe.
Sarakaani Sutta

Garrib
Posts: 464
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: Not attaining stream-entry

Post by Garrib » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:57 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:19 pm
But he has just these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. Yet if he has merely faith, merely affection for the Tathaagata, that man, too, does not go to... states of woe.
Sarakaani Sutta
Yes, my beloved Sarakaani Sutta - the authenticity of which has been brought into question in this thread. :o

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1396
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Not attaining stream-entry

Post by cappuccino » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:20 pm

Spiritual progress depends on the emergence of five cardinal virtues —
faith, vigor, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el065.html
The Five Spiritual Faculties

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 720
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Not attaining stream-entry

Post by Pondera » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:46 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:20 pm
Spiritual progress depends on the emergence of five cardinal virtues —
faith, vigor, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el065.html
The Five Spiritual Faculties
Do you think that faith is a faculty of the heart? Asking for a friend.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1396
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Not attaining stream-entry

Post by cappuccino » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:54 pm

In the sense of having one's heart in the right place.

So, yes.

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 720
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Not attaining stream-entry

Post by Pondera » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:07 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:54 pm
In the sense of having one's heart in the right place.

So, yes.
You speak, perhaps, of intent? Correct me if I am incorrect, but that is my understanding of "in the right place". Still asking for a friend.

But just to be clear; you agree that faith is a faculty of the heart in the figurative sense, not the literal?

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1396
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Not attaining stream-entry

Post by cappuccino » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:23 pm

The heart has affinity for the triple gem.

And so one thinks, my heart is in the right place.

Then one can devote effort.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1396
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Not attaining stream-entry

Post by cappuccino » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:26 pm

Intention is based on faith, from the heart.

If your heart is holding back, in doubt, it's difficult to progress.

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 720
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Not attaining stream-entry

Post by Pondera » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:35 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:26 pm
Intention is based on faith, from the heart.

If your heart is holding back, in doubt, it's difficult to progress.
Indeed. If one has faith the size of a mustard seed, he can move mountains (if it is his intent to do so).

From "the literal bottom of my heart" I "wish" you the best in your practice. :anjali:

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1396
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Not attaining stream-entry

Post by cappuccino » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:37 pm

:anjali:

Garrib
Posts: 464
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: Not attaining stream-entry

Post by Garrib » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:50 am

Beautiful exchange - I agree, the power of faith is incredible. For many of us, I think it might be the best thing we have going. It would be a real shame to devalue it or throw it away.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 78 guests