Buddhist response to Muslims

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Dinsdale
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Re: Buddhist response to Muslims

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:13 pm

Bundokji wrote: Islamic fundamentalists are still a small minority and not very powerful, so let us not help to rise to power by repeating the same mistakes :smile:
I see what you're saying about history, the problem now is that ISIL are expanding their territory by military force, so it's does look rather like Hitler at the invading Poland stage.

In an ideal world the western powers would take a hands-off approach and let the Muslim world sort out the problem over a period of time - but is that even possible?
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Mr Man
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Re: Buddhist response to Muslims

Post by Mr Man » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:31 pm

Charlie Hebdo: Whose Fault Is it? Russell Brand


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Bundokji
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Re: Buddhist response to Muslims

Post by Bundokji » Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:10 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Bundokji wrote: Islamic fundamentalists are still a small minority and not very powerful, so let us not help to rise to power by repeating the same mistakes :smile:
I see what you're saying about history, the problem now is that ISIL are expanding their territory by military force, so it's does look rather like Hitler at the invading Poland stage.

In an ideal world the western powers would take a hands-off approach and let the Muslim world sort out the problem over a period of time - but is that even possible?
Its worth mentioning that a big part of ISIL's forces are previous members of the old Iraqi army under the leadership of Saddam Hussein. The invasion of Iraq and the vacuum that has been left after Saddam Hussein is partly responsible for the rise of ISIL.

Personally, I am a bit cautious when it comes to believing what I watch in the news. For example, when the media wants to demonize a group of people (and this usually happens before taking military action) they will exaggerate the power of this particular group (remember the weapons of mass destruction!). They tell us what they want and how they want it! They are also good at selecting labels to describe a particular group. If a certain group form an alliance with the west, they are described as freedom fighters, but when they fight against the west they become terrorists.

When a group of people use knifes to behead other human beings, it looks scary and disgusting, but when a jet fighter throw a bomb killing hundreds, it looks as benign as a computer game!

The war in Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan have never stopped, but we don't hear about them much in the news, why? Because the killing became very frequent and the news about them is not as amusing as when the war was fresh (the masses should be kept amused, should not they!)

Normal people like me and your good self, sit infront of the TV or the computer screen, and receive what the media selectively present, and many of us shape our beliefs about the world based on what we have been allowed to see, hence the killing of 17 people (which is very tragic) becomes a hot topic, and almost a million people rightly demonstrate against the action. However, only Buddha knows how many people are getting killed somewhere else as we speak. As it has been said: "out of sight is out of mind"

I doubt that the west will allow the Muslims enough time especially that normal/ naïve people from both sides are getting affected and carried away by what they see in the news. My name is Mohammad, and I can have a normal conversation with some westerners until they know my name, then they wince :smile: Personally, from what I am seeing, I am not very optimistic about the future.

Peace
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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imagemarie
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Re: Buddhist response to Muslims

Post by imagemarie » Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:32 pm

:goodpost:
Russell Brand makes some good points too (though I doubt many here will agree with him). Thanks for posting Mr Man.

Here is some more "context"

http://www.irr.org.uk/news/where-monoculturalism-leads/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



:anjali:

imagemarie ("thick-headed leftie")

culaavuso
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Re: Buddhist response to Muslims

Post by culaavuso » Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:33 pm

Bundokji wrote: Personally, I am a bit cautious when it comes to believing what I watch in the news.
[url=http://www.thegreatideas.org/aww/TGIO332.pdf]Why Speculate?[/url] by Michael Crichton wrote: Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them.

In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.

That is the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect. I’d point out it does not operate in other arenas of life. In ordinary life, if somebody consistently exaggerates or lies to you, you soon discount everything they say. In court, there is the legal doctrine of falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus, which means untruthful in one part, untruthful in all. But when it comes to the media, we believe against evidence that it is probably worth our time to read other parts of the paper. When, in fact, it almost certainly isn’t. The only possible explanation for our behavior is amnesia.

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Bundokji
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Re: Buddhist response to Muslims

Post by Bundokji » Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:41 pm

culaavuso wrote:
Bundokji wrote: Personally, I am a bit cautious when it comes to believing what I watch in the news.
[url=http://www.thegreatideas.org/aww/TGIO332.pdf]Why Speculate?[/url] by Michael Crichton wrote: Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them.

In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.

That is the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect. I’d point out it does not operate in other arenas of life. In ordinary life, if somebody consistently exaggerates or lies to you, you soon discount everything they say. In court, there is the legal doctrine of falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus, which means untruthful in one part, untruthful in all. But when it comes to the media, we believe against evidence that it is probably worth our time to read other parts of the paper. When, in fact, it almost certainly isn’t. The only possible explanation for our behavior is amnesia.
:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Ahura Mazda
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Re: Buddhist response to Muslims

Post by Ahura Mazda » Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:37 pm

I share the view of some people on this forum that Islam cannot be reformed. Any attempts of doing that not only will not be successful but they may even result in a death sentence for an aspiring reformer (as in case of Bab, Rashad Khalifa or Mahmoud Muhammad Taha). The founder of Islam was a brutal man and his teachings contain so much raw hatred, that it's simply unfeasible to try to reform them. It's much easier to simply reject them altogether.

I consider Baha'i Faith to be the only successful case of reforming Islam even though it did not really "reform" Islam but abolished it.
“Though you might conquer in battle
A thousand times a thousand men,
You're the greatest battle-winner
If you conquer just one - yourself.”

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Dhammanando
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Re: Buddhist response to Muslims

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:45 pm

Anagarika wrote:After "expert" Emerson made the rounds on US news stations espousing the idea of Islamic "no go zones" in major cities, claiming Birmingham, England was controlled by Muslims (most Americans can't find England on a map) , the BBC caught up with him:

" Emerson, who describes himself as, quote, "one of the leading authorities" on Islamic extremist networks, appeared on the BBC Monday and apologized.

STEVE EMERSON: I relied on incorrect research. It was totally irresponsible for me not to have fact-checked the information that I obtained. And it was not done out of any malice, but out of a total irresponsible journalistic practice, which I usually and uniformly don’t practice.
I suspect that this silly man just got the city names mixed up and was probably thinking of either Burnley, Blackburn or (most likely) the Yorkshire city of Bradford, with its Jihadist/Loony Left Member of Parliament George Galloway.



If Emerson did in fact mean the Islamic Republic of Bradford, then what he had to say wouldn’t actually be all that far off the mark. He says, for example, that “Birmingham” is a city where the police don’t dare to take any action against Muslims. Well, I can remember twenty years ago when there were hundreds of Muslims marching through Bradford bearing “Kill Salman Rushdie!” placards and our supine police didn’t dare arrest a single one of them for incitement to murder.

He also speaks of “Birmingham” as being run by Shariah courts, with the British legal system no longer having any de facto jurisdiction. In Bradford this wouldn’t be true of criminal courts, but in civil matters the city’s Muslims are in fact subject to strong pressure, including threats of social ostracism and the boycotting of their businesses, to settle all inter-Muslim civil disputes in Shariah courts (courts in which women are not treated as equals) rather than in normal English courts.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Mkoll
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Re: Buddhist response to Muslims

Post by Mkoll » Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:51 pm

A mini-documentary about "Muslim Patrol" in London and the "Christian Patrol" opposing them.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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rowboat
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Re: Buddhist response to Muslims

Post by rowboat » Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:10 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Hate Has No Place in A Buddhist Heart
In his speech at the BBS Conference, Ashin Wirathu said that Islam fundamentalism posed an existential threat to Buddhists in the South Asian region, and that Buddhists in the region should work together to ensure their continued existence. However, once again, no specifics as to how we should work together, what we should do together were given, other than boycott Muslim businesses and not sell land to Muslims.

Sri Lanka and Burma are prime examples, where even if the entire citizenry of these countries comprised of 100% Sinhala/Burmese Buddhists, they would still be corrupt, divisive, inconsiderate, oppressive, and opportunistic. This is evident from all the way from our politics, the open or tacit military rule, to the inconsiderate selfish way we drive. Our disregard about the environment, disinterest in women's rights and special needs, the callous way we treat animals, the littering of the environment, the oppression of the poorest of our brothers and sisters, and the grovelling at the feet of the rich.

O where o where are the Thinking Buddhists, the Happy Buddhists. Almost everyone of the BBS who spoke at the BBS Conference spoke motivated with anger, their hoarse voices rising to shrill levels. Where are Sri Lankan's Walopola Rahulas, Bhikkhu Dhammaviharis, Ajhan Brahms, Bhikkhu Bodhis, the mighty Naradas, the great Ananda Maitheyas? Instead we are now led by Gnanasaras and Wirathus. This entire order of Bhikkhus in Sri Lanka looks empty to me. I see it as a dying tree, which no longer attracts bees and butterflies to suck the sweet nectar from is beautiful blossom, but instead filling with woodworms boring into its once mighty heartwood.
From an earlier thread found here-

:anjali:
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

Dan74
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Re: Buddhist response to Muslims

Post by Dan74 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:45 pm

One of many aspects of these developments that worry me, is the so-called West forgetting what we actually stand for, our core values of human rights, freedom of speech and thought, accountability, democracy, transparency, justice. Sure in Australia many of those Charlie Hebdo cartoons would not be publishable probably due to our Anti-vilification legislation and that's a good thing, if you ask me. But we should stand up to any group, whether political, religious, special interest, etc which disrespects and attempts to subvert our core values and not be deterred by perceived bias. This is where we have to be resolute, just as we should be resolute against prejudice and in ensuring everyone in our society is treated fairly.
_/|\_

chownah
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Re: Buddhist response to Muslims

Post by chownah » Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:49 am

Dan74 wrote:One of many aspects of these developments that worry me, is the so-called West forgetting what we actually stand for, our core values of human rights, freedom of speech and thought, accountability, democracy, transparency, justice. Sure in Australia many of those Charlie Hebdo cartoons would not be publishable probably due to our Anti-vilification legislation and that's a good thing, if you ask me. But we should stand up to any group, whether political, religious, special interest, etc which disrespects and attempts to subvert our core values and not be deterred by perceived bias. This is where we have to be resolute, just as we should be resolute against prejudice and in ensuring everyone in our society is treated fairly.
I believe you are mistaken. All those cartoons can be published in Australia...all you need to publish a cartoon in Australia is a copy of the cartoon and a copying machine. Really, you can publish them in Australia and pretty much anyplace else. The arguement here is not about whether there should be free speech. The arguement here is to what coercive degree should the people with guns (e.g. governments and terrorists) be allowed to go to in order to intimidate people into not publishing. For instance if someone published those cartoons in Australia (I have already shown that it is in fact possible to do this) should the people with guns confiscate your money (fines) or your property (confiscation) or your freedom (incarceration) or torture (torture) or your life (death).
chownah

Dinsdale
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Re: Buddhist response to Muslims

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:21 am

Ahura Mazda wrote:I share the view of some people on this forum that Islam cannot be reformed.
It certainly needs reforming, but I'm pretty sure that can only be done by Muslims.
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Dinsdale
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Re: Buddhist response to Muslims

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:28 am

Bundokji wrote: Personally, I am a bit cautious when it comes to believing what I watch in the news. For example, when the media wants to demonize a group of people (and this usually happens before taking military action) they will exaggerate the power of this particular group (remember the weapons of mass destruction!). They tell us what they want and how they want it!
Sure, but people are not stupid, and these days there are different ways to get information. A lot of us in the UK protested against involvement in the Iraq war, we sensed from an early stage that Tony Blair and co. were putting a spin on WMD, and not at all surprised to hear about the "dodgy dossier".

As for ISIL's aggressive expansion of territory, well that does seem to be a fact, and it doesn't seem like they are going to stop. The problem with fanatics is that you can't negotiate with them, so I'm pretty sure all that is going to end badly.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Dhammanando
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Re: Buddhist response to Muslims

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:44 am

Hi Dan,

I find your post a little mystifying.
Dan74 wrote:One of many aspects of these developments that worry me, is the so-called West forgetting what we actually stand for, our core values of human rights, freedom of speech and thought, accountability, democracy, transparency, justice.
So you think free speech is one of the West’s core values, and you’re worried that we in the West might forget this? Splendid!
Dan74 wrote:Sure in Australia many of those Charlie Hebdo cartoons would not be publishable probably due to our Anti-vilification legislation and that's a good thing, if you ask me.
Oh? So you’re not so worried after all? Although free speech is one of the West’s core values, you’re not at all worried that the Muslims have been able to stifle it in Australia?
Dan74 wrote:But we should stand up to any group, whether political, religious, special interest, etc which disrespects and attempts to subvert our core values and not be deterred by perceived bias.
Unless it’s a Muslim group, right?
Dan74 wrote:This is where we have to be resolute, just as we should be resolute against prejudice and in ensuring everyone in our society is treated fairly.
Everyone except critics of Islam and irreverent cartoonists?
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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