Interesting question.
Does a suicide create bad kamma?
If yes, does giving gifts from yourself to yourself create good kamma?
Suicide kamma
- dhammacoustic
- Posts: 955
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Re: Suicide kamma
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Last edited by dhammacoustic on Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Suicide kamma
Does a suicide create bad kamma? Yes. It is aversion towards yourself.
If yes, does giving gifts from yourself to yourself create good kamma? Yes. You first extend Metta to yourself.
If yes, does giving gifts from yourself to yourself create good kamma? Yes. You first extend Metta to yourself.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
- Sweet_Nothing
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:58 am
Re: Suicide kamma
Suicide is often the end result of extremely intolerable dukkha. Dukkha is inherent in samsara, however; it becomes extremely intolerable when the being heavily accumulates kammas that produce dukkha and there are fewer accumulation of kammas that produce joy.
In such a situation, when the being commits suicide (especially in complete ignorance) - the reborn being is likely to be born in a lower plane (or less favorable situation in same plane) because there is a lack of kammas that ripen into joyful experiences ; and there is new unwholesome kamma from the attempt to escape the results of one's actions, responsibilities, etc. along with old unripened unwholesome kamma that's inherited as is.
Giving gift to self - depends on type of gift - a lap dance at a strip club, a lamborghini or a dhamma book ?
In such a situation, when the being commits suicide (especially in complete ignorance) - the reborn being is likely to be born in a lower plane (or less favorable situation in same plane) because there is a lack of kammas that ripen into joyful experiences ; and there is new unwholesome kamma from the attempt to escape the results of one's actions, responsibilities, etc. along with old unripened unwholesome kamma that's inherited as is.
Giving gift to self - depends on type of gift - a lap dance at a strip club, a lamborghini or a dhamma book ?
Homage to the triple gem.
Re: Suicide kamma
SarathW wrote:Does a suicide create bad kamma? Yes. It is aversion towards yourself.
If yes, does giving gifts from yourself to yourself create good kamma? Yes. You first extend Metta to yourself.
Re: Suicide kamma
Hello Sarath,
An eternalist, like a Muslim suicide bomber, kills himself because he thinks he will be better off in the next life if he does so. An annihilationist, who thinks he'll stop existing if he kills himself, has decided that this life is so bad that it will be better to not exist. He thinks he will be better off dead than alive and he wants what's best for himself. Neither of these has aversion towards himself. Both are taking the step that they think is best for themselves.
Even those Buddhist monks who practised ugliness meditation and committed mass suicide were not averse to themselves. They were disgusted with their bodies and wanted to get rid of them. And so they too were taking the step that they thought was best for themselves: the step of getting rid of their bodies.
So I ask you: who exactly has ever committed suicide out of aversion towards himself?
I don't know.SarathW wrote:Does a suicide create bad kamma?
I'm not convinced that this is true.Yes. It is aversion towards yourself.
An eternalist, like a Muslim suicide bomber, kills himself because he thinks he will be better off in the next life if he does so. An annihilationist, who thinks he'll stop existing if he kills himself, has decided that this life is so bad that it will be better to not exist. He thinks he will be better off dead than alive and he wants what's best for himself. Neither of these has aversion towards himself. Both are taking the step that they think is best for themselves.
Even those Buddhist monks who practised ugliness meditation and committed mass suicide were not averse to themselves. They were disgusted with their bodies and wanted to get rid of them. And so they too were taking the step that they thought was best for themselves: the step of getting rid of their bodies.
So I ask you: who exactly has ever committed suicide out of aversion towards himself?
Of course not. It isn't even giving. It's just acquisition.If yes, does giving gifts from yourself to yourself create good kamma?
Where did you get this idea from?Yes. You first extend Metta to yourself.
“To aim and hit, you need one eye only, and one good finger.”
— Moshe Dayan
— Moshe Dayan
Re: Suicide kamma
hI M
According to Buddhism, suicide is a result of ignorance.
Yes some ignorant Buddhist monks involved with suicide.
Metta towards yourself is part of Metta meditation.
Please read this:
"Passion-obsession gets obsessed with pleasant feeling. Resistance-obsession gets obsessed with painful feeling. Ignorance-obsession gets obsessed with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
According to Buddhism, suicide is a result of ignorance.
Yes some ignorant Buddhist monks involved with suicide.
Metta towards yourself is part of Metta meditation.
Please read this:
"Passion-obsession gets obsessed with pleasant feeling. Resistance-obsession gets obsessed with painful feeling. Ignorance-obsession gets obsessed with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Suicide kamma
Sweet_Nothing wrote:Suicide is often the end result of extremely intolerable dukkha. Dukkha is inherent in samsara, however; it becomes extremely intolerable when the being heavily accumulates kammas that produce dukkha and there are fewer accumulation of kammas that produce joy.
In such a situation, when the being commits suicide (especially in complete ignorance) - the reborn being is likely to be born in a lower plane (or less favorable situation in same plane) because there is a lack of kammas that ripen into joyful experiences ; and there is new unwholesome kamma from the attempt to escape the results of one's actions, responsibilities, etc. along with old unripened unwholesome kamma that's inherited as is.
Giving gift to self - depends on type of gift - a lap dance at a strip club, a lamborghini or a dhamma book ?
Yes, I think all this "oneself" referred to here is a strawman (or what one may call that).MDayan wrote:I'm not convinced that this is true.
An eternalist, like a Muslim suicide bomber, kills himself because he thinks he will be better off in the next life if he does so. An annihilationist, who thinks he'll stop existing if he kills himself, has decided that this life is so bad that it will be better to not exist. He thinks he will be better off dead than alive and he wants what's best for himself. Neither of these has aversion towards himself. Both are taking the step that they think is best for themselves.
Even those Buddhist monks who practised ugliness meditation and committed mass suicide were not averse to themselves. They were disgusted with their bodies and wanted to get rid of them. And so they too were taking the step that they thought was best for themselves: the step of getting rid of their bodies.
So I ask you: who exactly has ever committed suicide out of aversion towards himself?
As the Buddha clearly stated there is no one in the entire universe that one could hold more dear than oneself. And I believe through honest observation everyone could verify this by himself at any given moment, even in the most painful, humiliating, horrible circumstances.
Anyway, though it may not be towards "oneself", I think in all these cases involved with suicide, obviously there is some kind of aversion against something - most generally against this moment/period/situation of existence (yes, also for the suicide bombers who want to go to heaven, they have aversion to their general situation here, I'm quite sure; you can hardly assume their rationale/rationalization as a completely adequate description of their experiential reality, we all have great discrepancies there), or existence in general. I think that's undeniable. And aversion is unwholesome. For me there's no doubt, or no other understandable explanation than that the 500 Vesali monks who killed themselves were overcome with strong aversion against their existence (not against "themselves", but the mode of existence at that time as perceived). "Disgust" - how is there no aversion involved with it? Patigha (or something) I think is the Pali word. It is very different from nibbida - dispassion, that one would be aiming at through such meditations to counter the attraction and infatuation with the body. Patigha is cultivated as an antidote against infatuation to arrive at a balanced nibbida. But naturally it's possible that one can overshoot the mark here, and I think that's what happens most typically with people committing suicide.
The Vesali monks might have been in a much more balanced state about it than the average Joe who has ruined is life and arrived at complete misery, or the run-of-the-mill patient with an incurable disease who can't bear it anymore. I think there is a wide spectrum of mental landscapes from where to arrive at suicide. But I think the cases are exceedingly rare where it would be completely devoid of unwholesomeness (that is, of course, only arahats, who cannot have any unwholesome volitions anymore).
Last edited by perkele on Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Suicide kamma
I think that's nitpicking.MDayan wrote:Hello Sarath,
Of course not. It isn't even giving. It's just acquisition.If yes, does giving gifts from yourself to yourself create good kamma?
In my eyes there can be much wholesomeness involved in "giving gifts to oneself", generally treating oneself well. A disturbed relationship to oneself I think is quite common in our times. Getting back to a healthy balance and lifting oneself out of misery can help others around just as much and have great wholesome impact far beyond what one can see immediately. It's not generally an easy feat if you're in dire straits. Of course, when one is in misery it may even not be so easily accessible even to treat oneself with any wholesome "treats", and not just indulge in unwholesome sense gratification as we have so much at our disposal all the time.
It can be even painful, to learn what could be really wholesome at such a time.
Even just to sit down, relax and watch your breath - an invaluable gift to oneself, with the right attitude... yet it can feel like excruciating torture. I think many may have experience with that.
Re: Suicide kamma
Hello Perkele,
By perhaps I'm wrong. So if you can show me a text where the term dana includes "giving a gift to oneself" or "treating oneself well", then I'll give myself a slap on the wrist for nitpicking.
And I think that it's simply sticking to what the Buddha taught about dana.perkele wrote:I think that's nitpicking.MDayan wrote:Of course not. It isn't even giving. It's just acquisition.If yes, does giving gifts from yourself to yourself create good kamma?
By perhaps I'm wrong. So if you can show me a text where the term dana includes "giving a gift to oneself" or "treating oneself well", then I'll give myself a slap on the wrist for nitpicking.
“To aim and hit, you need one eye only, and one good finger.”
— Moshe Dayan
— Moshe Dayan
Re: Suicide kamma
Hello Sarath,
Buddhaghosa says that metta practice begins with reflecting on the perils of anger and the rewards of patience.
After that the yogi develops metta by thinking: “As I wish for happiness, so do other beings.”
This is not extending metta to yourself. It is using yourself as an example of how all beings desire happiness. I believe the idea of extending metta to yourself is a concoction of modern teachers. If you know of a Pali text that supports it please give a citation.
To repeat my question: where is this idea found?SarathW wrote:Metta towards yourself is part of Metta meditation.
Buddhaghosa says that metta practice begins with reflecting on the perils of anger and the rewards of patience.
After that the yogi develops metta by thinking: “As I wish for happiness, so do other beings.”
This is not extending metta to yourself. It is using yourself as an example of how all beings desire happiness. I believe the idea of extending metta to yourself is a concoction of modern teachers. If you know of a Pali text that supports it please give a citation.
“To aim and hit, you need one eye only, and one good finger.”
— Moshe Dayan
— Moshe Dayan
Re: Suicide kamma
Hi MDyan
Protecting yourself is a common sense.
The person who do not extend Metta to oneself will never be able to extend Metta to others.
Can you imagine a suicide bomber practicing Metta Bahawana?
Even in an emergency in a plane you attend to yourself before others.
Here I did not mean a selfish behaviour.
Metta
https://thebuddhistcentre.com/text/lovi ... meditation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Protecting yourself is a common sense.
The person who do not extend Metta to oneself will never be able to extend Metta to others.
Can you imagine a suicide bomber practicing Metta Bahawana?
Even in an emergency in a plane you attend to yourself before others.
Here I did not mean a selfish behaviour.
Metta
https://thebuddhistcentre.com/text/lovi ... meditation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Suicide kamma
In the Bikkhu Nanamoli translation of the Visuddhimagga it says:MDayan wrote:Hello Sarath,
To repeat my question: where is this idea found?SarathW wrote:Metta towards yourself is part of Metta meditation.
Buddhaghosa says that metta practice begins with reflecting on the perils of anger and the rewards of patience.
After that the yogi develops metta by thinking: “As I wish for happiness, so do other beings.”
This is not extending metta to yourself. It is using yourself as an example of how all beings desire happiness. I believe the idea of extending metta to yourself is a concoction of modern teachers. If you know of a Pali text that supports it please give a citation.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... on2011.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; around page 292First of all it should be developed only towards oneself, doing it repeatedly
thus: “May I be happy and free from suffering” or “May I keep myself free from
enmity, affliction and anxiety and live happily.”
So it seems extending metta to yourself at least dates back to Buddhagosa?
Re: Suicide kamma
I would not be so sure. How about soldiers who throw themslelves onto grenade to protect all others? Surely, there is no even a tiny aversion or unwholesomeness. But they kill themselves to protect others. They know, they will die. And they do this in full consciousness, so kamma certainly accumulates here. And I would not say this will be bad kammaAnyway, though it may not be towards "oneself", I think in all these cases involved with suicide, obviously there is some kind of aversion against something - most generally against this moment/period/situation of existence (yes, also for the suicide bombers who want to go to heaven, they have aversion to their general situation here, I'm quite sure; you can hardly assume their rationale/rationalization as a completely adequate description of their experiential reality, we all have great discrepancies there), or existence in general. I think that's undeniable. And aversion is unwholesome.
Re: Suicide kamma
I don't believe suicide is wrong in all cases. And we don't need speculative and spectacular scenarious (and sunglasses) that are somehow awe-inspiring and appealing to a sense of heroism.I was not questioning what constitues "dana" or "giving" in a dictionary sense. What I was getting at was that in what may be colloquially termed "giving a gift to oneself" there can be wholesomeness involved. The OP asked specifically about "a gift from oneself to oneself". One could interpret that as putting the resources at one's disposal to good use. There could be much wholesomeness involved.perkele wrote:And I think that it's simply sticking to what the Buddha taught about dana.MDayan wrote:I think that's nitpicking.
By perhaps I'm wrong. So if you can show me a text where the term dana includes "giving a gift to oneself" or "treating oneself well", then I'll give myself a slap on the wrist for nitpicking.
In cooking a soup for yourself from the vegetables that you have in the kitchen, in order to nourish yourself, there is likely some wholesomenss involved (instead of just taking no care of yourself at all and dwindling in inactivity like a Jain). If then, perhaps unexpectedly, a visitor comes to your home you can share the food with him (dana), which would perhaps not be possible even if you had not first thought about cooking and nourishing yourself before.
It just happened to me.
To care for oneself alone can be dull and tedious. But if one does it well despite not wanting to, one can be pleasently surprised.
I don't know if this makes sense to you, it's just to explain my way of thinking here. Whether thou shalst slap thyself on thy wrist for that, is up for you to decide.
To me, thisFeathers wrote: In the Bikkhu Nanamoli translation of the Visuddhimagga it says:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... on2011.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; around page 292First of all it should be developed only towards oneself, doing it repeatedly
thus: “May I be happy and free from suffering” or “May I keep myself free from
enmity, affliction and anxiety and live happily.”
So it seems extending metta to yourself at least dates back to Buddhagosa?has more appeal, seems to be more conducive to sobriety and seeing things as they actually are (without taking into consideration what Buddhaghosa actually said/wrote).MDayan wrote:Buddhaghosa says that metta practice begins with reflecting on the perils of anger and the rewards of patience.
After that the yogi develops metta by thinking: “As I wish for happiness, so do other beings.”
This is not extending metta to yourself. It is using yourself as an example of how all beings desire happiness. I believe the idea of extending metta to yourself is a concoction of modern teachers. If you know of a Pali text that supports it please give a citation.
The description of extending metta to oneself, then to others, etc. could perhaps be seen analogue or similar to the "giving a gift to oneself", just some kind of allegory/simile to illustrate the actual reality behind.
Sure. I was referring to the cases previously mentioned. But the qualifier "all these" was perhaps bound to be misunderstood.Zom wrote:I would not be so sure. How about soldiers who throw themslelves onto grenade to protect all others? Surely, there is no even a tiny aversion or unwholesomeness. But they kill themselves to protect others. They know, they will die. And they do this in full consciousness, so kamma certainly accumulates here. And I would not say this will be bad kammaAnyway, though it may not be towards "oneself", I think in all these cases involved with suicide, obviously there is some kind of aversion against something - most generally against this moment/period/situation of existence (yes, also for the suicide bombers who want to go to heaven, they have aversion to their general situation here, I'm quite sure; you can hardly assume their rationale/rationalization as a completely adequate description of their experiential reality, we all have great discrepancies there), or existence in general. I think that's undeniable. And aversion is unwholesome.
I also saidButI think there is a wide spectrum of mental landscapes from where to arrive at suicide.I think the cases are exceedingly rare where it would be completely devoid of unwholesomeness (that is, of course, only arahats, who cannot have any unwholesome volitions anymore).
There could be morally clean cases of suicide that don't look appealing at all to the outside observer and give no pleasent food for storytelling either. (I think a case of "wholesome" suicide would quite likely in most cases not give much pleasent food for storytelling.)
I think there's nothing inherently morally wrong with suicide if one has no responsibilities and unresolved moral debts of any kind that one is leaving behind with that. But I think such cases are rare.