sex and romantic relationships

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Bote
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sex and romantic relationships

Post by Bote »

How come, if sex and romantic relationships (e.g. marriage) will clearly cause misery as romantic relationships are one of the biggest material attachments, do some buddhists (including teachers) participate?
soapy3
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Re: sex and romantic relationships

Post by soapy3 »

Most Buddhists, including meditation teachers are not arahats or people who are ready to give up everything else in life except for the path. Just not there yet.
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Anagarika
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Re: sex and romantic relationships

Post by Anagarika »

I was reading earlier this morning the stories of two of Ajahn Chah's western monks who served years in robes, only to disrobe and re-enter lay life with a romantic partner. No doubt that the call of intimacy, romance, passion, and partnership are strong callings; strong enough to cause some monks to disrobe. I've often thought that it is not the bramacariya life that is difficult to sustain, but perhaps the life of some of these forest monks who lived very difficult lives, eating disagreeable food, having perhaps disagreeable fellow monks to live with, and questioning whether the monastic path was worth it. Some may look at someone like Jack Kornfield, and see his life, his family, and successes, and wonder if a life at Spirit Rock is more fulfilling than life at WPN. It is not the monastic life that causes some to disrobe, but the extreme conditions some monks may find themselves in that allows the siren song of lay life to become so distinct.

My own sense is that monasteries like Bodhinyana in WA (and some in Thailand) might be the middle path that works for western monks, in some cases. A measure of diversity of people around, conviviality, an active lay support community in a non-remote location might allow a monk or nun to feel less removed from life, and less likely to want to cross over to the "other side."

I'm not suggesting that the Buddha taught a life of a Disneyland theme park, and there are monks and nuns that thrive on solitude and asceticism. I'd like to see more men and women ordain, and see fewer leave the robes due to difficulties with the life in a wat; perhaps monasteries like Bodinyana and others like it can serve as a template to grow the monastic life in both the east and west.
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Mr Man
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Re: sex and romantic relationships

Post by Mr Man »

Anagarika wrote:
My own sense is that monasteries like Bodhinyana in WA (and some in Thailand) might be the middle path that works for western monks, in some cases. A measure of diversity of people around, conviviality, an active lay support community in a non-remote location might allow a monk or nun to feel less removed from life, and less likely to want to cross over to the "other side."
Didn't the previous abbot of Bodhinyana in WA disrobe to marry one of the lay followers?
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Anagarika
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Re: sex and romantic relationships

Post by Anagarika »

Mr Man wrote:
Anagarika wrote:
My own sense ..."
Didn't the previous abbot of Bodhinyana in WA disrobe to marry one of the lay followers?
That would be the former Ajahn Jagaro, now http://www.questbooks.net/author.cfm?authornum=49" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; John Cianciosi. Though he lives quite close to me, I have not yet had a chance to meet him. He's an example of someone out of robes who contributes to the dissemination of the Dhamma, and an example of the contributions that the former Ajahn Chah monks that have disrobed and gone on to cultivate a positive Dhammic life as a lay person.

When I mentioned Bodhinyana, it was just part of the conversation, as one possible example of a monastic setting that might prove to be more "user friendly" for men and women that wish to ordain. Of course, even a day spent in robes brings merit, and disrobing is not a negative act. I understand that Ajahn Jagaro met a Thai patron in the early days of Bodhinyana, and fell in love...this can happen, of course. He's human, and perhaps no one knows, other than John Cianciosi, how this transformation occurred. Ajahn Brahm was then handed the keys to Bodhinyana, and that was an auspicious event, as he has transformed it into a significant Theravada monastic presence in Australia (for men and women), if not the world.
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Mr Man
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Re: sex and romantic relationships

Post by Mr Man »

Hi Anagrika,
My point was really about your perceptions (sense) rather that the former abbot.
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Anagarika
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Re: sex and romantic relationships

Post by Anagarika »

Mr Man wrote:Hi Anagrika,
My point was really about your perceptions (sense) rather that the former abbot.
I understood the point of your comment. That's why I framed my response as general conversation; an opinion, not an argument or a proof. It's an interesting subject and an interesting original post from bote .
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Dhammanando
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Re: sex and romantic relationships

Post by Dhammanando »

bote wrote:How come, if sex and romantic relationships (e.g. marriage) will clearly cause misery as romantic relationships are one of the biggest material attachments, do some buddhists (including teachers) participate?
Although in the Suttas the life of a samaṇa is generally depicted as a quick way up, we are also warned (e.g. in the Niraya chapter of the Dhammapada) that for some it may be a quick way down. For some, therefore, the decision not to embrace the brahmacariyā, or to abandon it after embracing it, may be a quite rational and prudent one, e.g. if they know that they don't have the necessary restraint to live such a life honourably.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Mkoll
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Re: sex and romantic relationships

Post by Mkoll »

Dhammanando wrote:
bote wrote:How come, if sex and romantic relationships (e.g. marriage) will clearly cause misery as romantic relationships are one of the biggest material attachments, do some buddhists (including teachers) participate?
Although in the Suttas the life of a samaṇa is generally depicted as a quick way up, we are also warned (e.g. in the Niraya chapter of the Dhammapada) that for some it may be a quick way down. For some, therefore, the decision not to embrace the brahmacariyā, or to abandon it after embracing it, may be a quite rational and prudent one, e.g. if they know that they don't have the necessary restraint to live such a life honourably.
Great post, Bhante. I was trying to come up with something like this but couldn't find the words or think of a good reference.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Nibbida
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Re: sex and romantic relationships

Post by Nibbida »

bote wrote:How come, if sex and romantic relationships (e.g. marriage) will clearly cause misery as romantic relationships are one of the biggest material attachments, do some buddhists (including teachers) participate?
Who says that sex and romantic relationships will clearly cause misery? That's an assumption that is not necessarily true for all people, all the time. Friends come and go, family members are born, get sick, and die, etc. Even beloved and revered teachers die and students miss them. If so, then the same could be said for any other human relationship, or any aspect of life (requiring food not to die, etc.)

Rather than seeing them as something to be avoided (unless you're a monastic), they provide opportunities for practice (loving-kindness, mindfulness, equanimity, generosity, etc.). Since most of us are not arhants, it's a much more productive approach than just restriction. Sex and romantic relationships are unique opportunities for laypersons because can produce very strong reactions, which can make them all the more valuable to observe and deal with skillfully.
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Dhammanando
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Re: sex and romantic relationships

Post by Dhammanando »

Nibbida wrote:
bote wrote:How come, if sex and romantic relationships (e.g. marriage) will clearly cause misery as romantic relationships are one of the biggest material attachments, do some buddhists (including teachers) participate?
Who says that sex and romantic relationships will clearly cause misery?
The Buddha.
  • "That's the way it is, householder. That's the way it is — for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear."
    Piyajātika Sutta
So unless you limit your sex life to prostitutes who mean nothing to you, then there will be people who are dear to you, with all that that imports.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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tiltbillings
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Re: sex and romantic relationships

Post by tiltbillings »

Dhammanando wrote:
Nibbida wrote:
bote wrote:How come, if sex and romantic relationships (e.g. marriage) will clearly cause misery as romantic relationships are one of the biggest material attachments, do some buddhists (including teachers) participate?
Who says that sex and romantic relationships will clearly cause misery?
The Buddha.
  • "That's the way it is, householder. That's the way it is — for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear."
    Piyajātika Sutta
So unless you limit your sex life to prostitutes who mean nothing to you, then there will be people who are dear to you, with all that that imports.
However, what "all that imports" will change with time and insight.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Nibbida
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Re: sex and romantic relationships

Post by Nibbida »

Dhammanando,

What personal experience do you have in relationships to assert that with such certainty, aside from a single ill-fated marriage? As I pointed out, if relationships are a source of suffering, then so is everything in life, including friends, family, eating, headaches, and getting old. Not even a bhikkhu lives in a vacuum.
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Dhammanando
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Re: sex and romantic relationships

Post by Dhammanando »

Nibbida wrote:What personal experience do you have in relationships to assert that with such certainty, aside from a single ill-fated marriage?
If I had appealed to my personal experience, then your question would be appropriate. But since I limited myself to citing an authority (because that's what you had asked for!) and then drawing what seemed like a reasonable inference from it, your question is impertinent and intrusive.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Nibbida
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Re: sex and romantic relationships

Post by Nibbida »

You are right about it being impertinent and intrusive. Honestly, I offer my apologies.

My intention wasn't to ask for a textual reference, and the one you posted does not change the relevance of rest of my response to the original poster. The question was asked rhetorically, to question the assumption underlying the statement. My underlying point was that there are a myriad of pleasant things one can cling to, relationships (romantic and otherwise) and sex are merely two examples. They are no different than others except perhaps in intensity for some, but not all, people. As long as one is not taking the monastic path, then one might as well use those experiences as opportunities to practice the Eightfold Path. What other option is there? Either isolate yourself to a hermitage (without the monastic training and support) or fumble through life clinging and suffering? For a layperson, the best course of action seems clear.
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