Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Hello.

I've been intrigued for a long time as to why the Buddha teached the formless jhanas. They are not included in the right concentration classification. Plus, they lead to rebirth in states of ignorance. But I found a sutta I'd like to discuss. It can be found here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The crucial passage is: "Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, without a sequel."

This seems to be the purpose of teaching the formless jhanas. They lead, step by step, to the attainment of nirodha samapatti. And then, when this state is seen with discernment, it leads to Nibbana.

So what is the relation between nirodha samapatti and nibbana? Or, in a different manner, what is it about nirodha samapatti that is important to realise nibbana?

Modus.Ponens wrote:Or, in a different manner, what is it about nirodha samapatti that is important to realise nibbana?

Possibly nothing.

First jhana is enough, for some, and the other rupajhanas are together themselves sufficient; the formless attainments are more likely to be extant brahmanical methods current at that time, which is why Alara and Uddaka could teach those - no one was teaching the rupajhanas before the Buddha introduced them (possibly even having first discovered them under the rose-apple tree as a youth).

I think you missed the point. There are various ways to realise nibbana, such as the samadhi focusing on anicca, the samadhi focusing on dukha and the samadhi focusing on anatta. This sutta indicates another way to realise it. What I'm asking is what is the process through which nibbana is realised by seeing with discernment the cessation of perception and feeling. I'm asking about this process in particular.

Modus.Ponens wrote:I think you missed the point. There are various ways to realise nibbana, such as the samadhi focusing on anicca, the samadhi focusing on dukha and the samadhi focusing on anatta. This sutta indicates another way to realise it. What I'm asking is what is the process through which nibbana is realised by seeing with discernment the cessation of perception and feeling. I'm asking about this process in particular.

Hi Modus
To help answer the question more accurately, why do you think the cessation of perception and feeling is not a samadhi focusing on anatta or dukkha?

metta

The other day a thought came to me about just this question. I think it may be something similar to near death experiences - perhaps nirodha samapatti and what happens then shows the mind that there is nothing to fear, thus nothing i.e. self, to protect.

But then, work needs to be done on actualising this in daily life, hence the attainment is not the end of the path.

Sarva wrote: Hi Modus
To help answer the question more accurately, why do you think the cessation of perception and feeling is not a samadhi focusing on anatta or dukkha?

metta

Because those who attain it say it's a cessation of experience. A samadhi focused on one of the three characteristics is an experience.

Modus.Ponens wrote:I think you missed the point. There are various ways to realise nibbana, such as the samadhi focusing on anicca, the samadhi focusing on dukha and the samadhi focusing on anatta. This sutta indicates another way to realise it. What I'm asking is what is the process through which nibbana is realised by seeing with discernment the cessation of perception and feeling. I'm asking about this process in particular.

When one emerges from the cessation attainment the mind contacts either signlessness, undirectedness, or emptiness (just as with the contemplation of impermanence, etc.), and inclines towards nibbāna. MN 44:

• "When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, how many contacts make contact?"
  
  "When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected."
  
  "When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, to what does his mind lean, to what does it tend, to what does it incline?"
  
  "When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion."

Visuddhimagga 23.50 comments as follows:

• Towards what does the mind of one who has emerged tend? It tends towards nibbana. For this is said: 'When a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, friend Visakha, his consciousness inclines to seclusion, leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion' (M.i,302).

Nirodha samapatti is not essential to realise nibbana.

The non-returner has removed five of the lower fetters to samsara and therefore is able to access nirodha samapatti (no others apart from arahanths who posses the 8th jhana can enter into it). It is therefore unlikely if not impossible that insight into anicca dukkha anatta is absent (more likely to be particularly strong) in these individuals.

This sutta may help

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The three doors to nibbana maybe connected but I'm not sure.

With metta

Matheesha

Thanks Nana.

suttametta wrote:Again, we can go into these issues if you like.

I've already pointed out to you where you are mistaken on a number of issues. Malcolm has patiently done so with regard to many issues. Yet you persist with your wild interpretations of the Budhadhamma.

suttametta wrote:Whereas, the Pali teachings about sati are uniquely different as to methodology, although not as different as one might think as to result, given the Buddha's statements about nibbana being an eternal radiant consciousness.

Given your penchant for reading Vedic views into the dhamma there's probably very little point in trying to clarify this issue. But here are a couple of contemporary Theravāda authors who refute your ideas about consciousness and nibbāna:

Nibbana is not Viññāṇa. Really, it just isn’t by Ven Sujato.

The Mind Stilled: 33 Sermons on Nibbāna by Ven. Ñāṇananda.

suttametta wrote:You are impugning my knowledge.

I reject your interpretation and understanding of the Theravāda and the Mahāyāna. It's really that simple.

Ñāṇa wrote:

suttametta wrote:Again, we can go into these issues if you like.

I've already pointed out to you where you where you are mistaken on a number of issues. Malcolm has patiently done so with regard to many issues. Yet you persist with your wild interpretations of the Budhadhamma.

I do thank you for your kind input. I beg to differ. I hardly see why I should acquiesce under the circumstances you mention. I have patiently pointed out the faults in the reasoning belonging to both you and Malcolm. I am under no obligation to cede to your authorities.

Ñāṇa wrote:

suttametta wrote:Whereas, the Pali teachings about sati are uniquely different as to methodology, although not as different as one might think as to result, given the Buddha's statements about nibbana being an eternal radiant consciousness.

Given your penchant for reading Vedic views into the dhamma there's probably very little point in trying to clarify this issue. But here are a couple of contemporary Theravāda authors who refute your ideas about consciousness and nibbāna:

Nibbana is not Viññāṇa. Really, it just isn’t by Ven Sujato.

Curious title given the statements in the suttas.

Ñāṇa wrote:The Mind Stilled: 33 Sermons on Nibbāna by Ven. Ñāṇananda.

Obviously not all bhikkus agree.

Ñāṇa wrote:

suttametta wrote:You are impugning my knowledge.

I reject your interpretation and understanding of the Theravāda and the Mahāyāna. It's really that simple.

It's good to clear the air. I don't know why you feel the need to make this statement. It's rather self-serving.

suttametta wrote:You are entitled to your opinion.

And you are entitled to conceive in, from, through, and around nibbana by considering the arahant to be identifiable with a permanent vinnana lighting the cosmos.

suttametta wrote: The absence of all things dukkha reveals the "pabham" shining vinnana of nibbana.

Ven. Punnaji would not agree with this view.

Punnaji also calls it "immortality."

I think the only place you will find that is on one of the websites some of his Chinese-Malaysian students have made; which they are just trying to convey a permanent nibbana, not a place or existence.

suttametta wrote:Malcolm turned me on to Peter Harvey's "The Selfless Mind." It is an excellent treatment of just these issues.

I'm not familiar with that work, but by sheer coincidence I just happened to run across Bhikkhu Bodhi's reference to it, in note 314 to SN 4.23.

Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: When the monk is said to attain final Nibbana with consciousness unestablished, this should not be understood to mean that after death consciousness survives in an "unestablished" condition (a thesis argued by Harvey, The Selfless Mind, pp. 208-210); for enough texts make it plain that with the passing away of the arahant consciousness too ceases and no longer exists (see, e.g., 12:51).

SN 12.51 wrote: "When there is utterly no consciousness, with the cessation of consciousness, would name-and-form be discerned?"
"No, venerable sir."

mfesmith wrote:Considering all the hand-wringing and angst that goes on over the term "hīnayāna" on Dharmawheel, I was suprised to see a great deal of unfettered sectarian remarks concerning Mahāyāna Buddhism and so on over here.
...

They can call us hinayana or bananayana or whatever they darn well like, it doesn't make a jot of difference and we are not supposed to get upset about it. And the same goes for the other camp. There was a sutta, can't recall the name, where the Buddha instructed that 'if people speak badly of you, to then get upset over it would be a hindrance for you', or words to that effect. We are supposed to just say, "This is how we practice here. That is how they practice there." Or words to that effect.