the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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nathan
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by nathan » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:23 pm

AdvaitaJ wrote:Having read Ajahn Brahm's book, Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond, this question keeps haunting me. With parinibbana described as the remainder-less cessation of everything, what is the difference between that and annihilation? I understand that as long as you're subject to rebirth, annihilation is wrong view. What I don't understand is how the results are different when you're no longer subject to rebirth. Everything ceases, right? The flame is extinguished, out, gone. It didn't go anywhere, it's just gone. So, how is this different from annihilation? :?:

Regards: AdvaitaJ
There is a difference but it is impossible to describe. It is impossible to describe because nibbana has no conditions which can be described and all language is based on conditions and describes conditions and conditional relations. It is impossible to describe because nibbana contains no consciousness condition or time condition or space condition and so it is only described in terms of the absence of all dependently originating conditions. It is not annihilation of conditions as dependently originated conditions continue for the apparent universe at large and for all apparent beings sustained by varying degrees of delusion and fundamental ignorance and it is not eternal as it neither arises nor passes. Reasoning is inadequate for comprehending nibbana as the conditions which sustain reason cannot contact or comprehend nibbana. It can be said that nibbana "is" and that it "is" what "is" when dependently arising and passing conditions are consciously, with insight and understanding, willfully and entirely abandoned, be this for a moment or for a period of time or with the lasting cessation of the dependent conditions that bound up together make up the appearances of being and becoming.

What conditions need to be developed and what conditions need to be abandoned in order to stop or to make an end to dependently originating conditions is what can be described and what can be done in order to realize nibbana but nibbana can not be said to be understandable. So what we can do is undertake the path that leads to the realization but no one can or ever will be able to communicate the nature of this realization because it is forever beyond range of understanding or description.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

rowyourboat
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by rowyourboat » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:03 am

Nibbana paccaya consciousness (vinnana)?

Vinnana paccaya nibbana?

There is no such causal connection, to reflect (mirror like) off each other. There can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu.

Consciousness only reflects Nama-rupa.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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kirk5a
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by kirk5a » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:27 pm

rowyourboat wrote: There can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu.
Could you provide a sutta passage which states that? Thanks.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Alex123
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by Alex123 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:42 pm

kirk5a wrote:
rowyourboat wrote: There can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu.
Could you provide a sutta passage which states that? Thanks.
If there is no objects, no mind-base (or mind-element), then no consciousness is possible

In various ways we are told, that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness. ...
Bhikkhus, founded on whatever, consciousness arises, it is reckoned on that.
On account of eye and forms arises consciousness, it's reckoned eye consciousness.
On account of ear and sounds arises consciousness, it's reckoned ear consciousness.
On account of nose and smells arises consciousness, it's reckoned nose consciousness.
On account of tongue and tastes arises consciousness, it's reckoned tongue consciousness.
On account of body and touches arises consciousness, it's reckoned body consciousness.
On account of mind and ideas arises consciousness, it's reckoned mind consciousness. Bhikkhus, just as based on whatever fire burns, it is reckoned by that. Fire ablaze with sticks is stick fire. Ablaze with twigs is twig fire. Ablaze with grass is grass fire. Ablaze with cow dung is cow dung fire. Ablaze with grain thrash is grain thrash fire. Ablaze with dirt is dirt fire.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ta-e1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for consciousness, i.e., name-and-form. ...This is the extent to which there are means of designation, expression, and delineation. This is the extent to which the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world — i.e., name-and-form together with consciousness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
When nibbana-without-remainder occurs, is there mind-base or mind-element, + something left?


No.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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kirk5a
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by kirk5a » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:50 pm

Hi Alex.

I'm not looking for any kind of deductive or inferential argument based upon any sutta passages.

I am interested in a sutta passage which directly, clearly and unambiguously states "there can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

rowyourboat
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by rowyourboat » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:06 pm

How about this one:
Any stress that comes into play
is all from consciousness
as a requisite
condition.
With the cessation of consciousness,
there is no stress
coming into play.
Knowing this drawback —
that stress comes from consciousness
as a requisite
condition —
with the stilling of consciousness, the monk
free from hunger
is totally unbound.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:16 pm

kirk5a wrote:Hi Alex.

I'm not looking for any kind of deductive or inferential argument based upon any sutta passages.

I am interested in a sutta passage which directly, clearly and unambiguously states "there can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu"
Maybe one needs to establish what is meant by nibbāna-dhātu, particularly by dhātu.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Alex123
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by Alex123 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:24 pm

kirk5a wrote:Hi Alex.
I am interested in a sutta passage which directly, clearly and unambiguously states "there can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu"
First, please define what you mean by nibbāna-dhātu. In this discussion we are talking about parinibbāna.

Second, how can anyone maintain that Viññāṇaṃ exists "in" parinibbāna?

The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness (Viññāṇaṃ) has come to its end.” – Ud 8.9 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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kirk5a
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by kirk5a » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:43 pm

Alex123 wrote:
kirk5a wrote:Hi Alex.
I am interested in a sutta passage which directly, clearly and unambiguously states "there can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu"
First, please define what you mean by nibbāna-dhātu.
Matheesha first used that term. He can say what he means.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Alex123
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by Alex123 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:48 pm

Kirk,

in any case, you know what the suttas state about viññāṇa and parinibbāna. It is the end of consciousness and there isn't anything "that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity".
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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kirk5a
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by kirk5a » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:55 pm

Alex123 wrote:there isn't anything "that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity".
Now I can ask you to provide a sutta which states exactly what you have said here. "There isn't anything..."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Alex123
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by Alex123 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:06 pm

kirk5a wrote:
Alex123 wrote:there isn't anything "that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity".
Now I can ask you to provide a sutta which states exactly what you have said here. "There isn't anything..."

Too many suttas to list. As you remember, there are 5 aggregates, not 6 aggregates. All those five aggregates cease.



"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How can there be anything other than 5 aggregates?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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kirk5a
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by kirk5a » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:12 pm

Alex123 wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
Alex123 wrote:there isn't anything "that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity".
Now I can ask you to provide a sutta which states exactly what you have said here. "There isn't anything..."

Too many suttas to list. As you remember, there are 5 aggregates, not 6 aggregates. All those five aggregates cease.



"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How can there be anything other than 5 aggregates?
Just one will suffice, thank you. No arguments regarding 5 aggregates vs 6 aggreates, if you don't mind. Simply a quotation where the Buddha says
"there isn't anything that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Bluishpurple
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by Bluishpurple » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:55 pm

Very interesting thread I must say.

Bluishpurple
:namaste:

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mikenz66
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:06 pm

Hi Kirk,
kirk5a wrote: Just one will suffice, thank you. No arguments regarding 5 aggregates vs 6 aggreates, if you don't mind. Simply a quotation where the Buddha says
"there isn't anything that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity"
I'm surprised you didn't quote the following, though it's probably been discussed somewhere on this thread before...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-043" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Not-born {Iti 2.16; Iti 37}
"There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned."

The born, come-to-be, produced,
The made, the conditioned, the transient,
Conjoined with decay and death,
A nest of disease, perishable,
Sprung from nutriment and craving's cord —
That is not fit to take delight in.

The escape from that, the peaceful,
Beyond reasoning, everlasting,
The not-born, the unproduced,
The sorrowless state that is void of stain,
The cessation of states linked to suffering,
The stilling of the conditioned — bliss.
:anjali:
Mike

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