the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
A_Martin
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Post by A_Martin » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:07 am

Straight from the heart, Things as they are and a Life of Inner Quality, all by the Venerable Acharn Maha Bua have been revised, difficult passages have been re translated from the Thai by a western monk who has trained more than 25 years under Venerable Acharn Maha Bua. I would advise to read the books of Than Acharn Maha Bua as you can find them on his website http://www.luangta.com/english" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, or forestdhammabooks. Maybe ore hopefully there will be less confusion then.
>> Phu ru, the One who knows, is avijja, Once Phu ru is gone, there is only kwarm ru luluan, infinite knowing, whatever you want to know, you can know.
>> Once avijja breaks down, you will see all the three realms, it is only avijja who hides them. The Past is there, e.g. you can see all your previous lifes and the future.
Some remarks the Venerable Acharn Maha Bua made in his talks to the monks. So little has been translated. In the last 15 years of his life he has given so complete descriptions of the path of practice and the encounters of a practitioner, that it is a real pity, that these have not been translated. I will try to translate with the help of a friend a few important ones.
As long as we are raindrops, we are limited and have an identity, once we fall back to where we belong, the vast ocean, we will loose our identity and whatever the ocean knows, is known. (However the ocean has no limits)
Words are conventional reality, nibbana is not conventional, so whatever we say about nibbana is limited, is bound to our understanding of conventional reality.
Metta Martin

rowyourboat
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Post by rowyourboat » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:13 pm

I agree with Martin. There is no point trying to clarify it logically. I might as well try to logically grasp the taste of oranges - but even that simile is not adequate because this about 'something' which does not exist is any shape or form that we know, yet cannot be said not to exist.
With Metta

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kirk5a
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Post by kirk5a » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:09 pm

rowyourboat wrote:I agree with Martin. There is no point trying to clarify it logically. I might as well try to logically grasp the taste of oranges - but even that simile is not adequate because this about 'something' which does not exist is any shape or form that we know, yet cannot be said not to exist.
Sure. And yet teachers still talk about it. :smile:

So continuing on with Ajahn Maha Boowa (Venerable Acharn Maha Bua), there is this juicy bit:

"I understood clearly that nothing dies. The citta certainly doesn’t die; in fact, it becomes more pronounced. The more fully we investigate the four elements, breaking them down into their original properties, the more distinctly pronounced the citta appears. So where is death to be found? And what is it that dies? The four elements—earth, water, wind and fire—they don’t die. As for the citta, how can it die? It becomes more conspicuous, more aware and more insightful. This essential knowing nature never dies, so why is it so afraid of death? Because it deceives itself. For eons and eons it has fooled itself into believing in death when actually nothing ever dies."
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ntship.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

mlswe
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Post by mlswe » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:56 am

mlswe wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Vinnana causes mental-material phenomena
Mental-material phenomena causes vinnana (consciouness)

Do you posit self-existent phenomena?

If that which is aware is disbanded, aggregates cease.

The bigger question is- why is there so much resistance to a moment of cessation in multiple moments of arising bliss? Sounds like attachment to aggregates to me. :stirthepot:
I'm not positing anything actually.

My point in participating in this thread was just to share some words that go against the "extinction" idea, so here are some more:

"The Dhamma that can't be described: That's the genuine Dhamma. It doesn't have the word 'vanishes' or 'disappears' -- simply that the world can't reach in to know it and touch it. As for annihilating this Dhamma, it can't be annihilated. When we practice in line with the tactics given by each of the Buddhas, we can touch it and become aware of it. The heart becomes an awareness of the Dhamma, a right and fitting vessel for the Dhamma -- and there is no vessel more appropriate for receiving each level of the Dhamma than the heart. When it enters into the Dhamma in full measure, the heart becomes one with the Dhamma. The heart is the Dhamma. The Dhamma is the heart. Oneness. There is nothing but oneness, not becoming two with anything else."
- Ajahn Maha Boowa
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ey_Are.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I beleive Ajahn Maha Boowa to know what he is talking about. Maybe its the translation, i don´t know but i think for many people this talking of oneness may confuse them into thinking that there are two things coming together. I think it was Thanissaro Bhikkhu who said something of the " already thereness" of it. Expressing it that way I think is much more clarifying. Focusing on the removing of dust of the Dhamma-eye

been tired and restless lately, that i missed the end is quite amazing, he is clear.

well back to anapanasati for me i think

dhammapal
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Post by dhammapal » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:41 am

I found this quote:
Samyutta Nikaya 12.65 wrote:"It is just as if a man, traveling along a wilderness track, were to see an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by people of former times. He would follow it. Following it, he would see an ancient city, an ancient capital inhabited by people of former times, complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. He would go to address the king or the king's minister, saying, 'Sire, you should know that while traveling along a wilderness track I saw an ancient path... I followed it... I saw an ancient city, an ancient capital... complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. Sire, rebuild that city!' The king or king's minister would rebuild the city, so that at a later date the city would become powerful, rich, & well-populated, fully grown & prosperous.
From: Nigara Sutta transl. Thanissaro (read aloud by Leigh Brasington)
On the other hand I found this quote:
Snp 5.10 wrote:[Kappa:]
For one stranded in the middle of the lake, in the flood of great danger — birth — overwhelmed with aging & death: Tell me the island, dear sir, and show me the island so that this may not happen again.

[The Buddha:]
For one stranded in the middle of the lake, in the flood of great danger — birth — overwhelmed with aging & death, I will tell you the island, Kappa. Having nothing, clinging to no thing: That is the island, there is no other. That's Unbinding, I tell you, the total ending of aging & death. Those knowing this, mindful, fully unbound in the here & now, don't serve as Mara's servants, don't come under Mara's sway.
From: Kappa's Question transl. Thanissaro (read aloud)
So is it possible to be rich and active without having anything?

Thanks / dhammapal.

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ground
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Post by ground » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:20 pm

Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction
How about "Extinction of bondage"?

Kind regards

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kirk5a
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Post by kirk5a » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:59 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction
How about "Extinction of bondage"?

Kind regards
nir "without"
vana "bindings"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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ground
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Post by ground » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:59 pm

kirk5a wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction
How about "Extinction of bondage"?

Kind regards
nir "without"
vana "bindings"
Ah ... nice

Kind regards

villkorkarma
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by villkorkarma » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:23 pm

There is no I becourse I think maybe we and others beeing reborn with different situations good and bad so therefore and the influenting beginns there and the process has started already, there is no choice just things happens thats all.
one suffer because one hasnt existed long : )

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Alex123
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by Alex123 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:51 pm

AdvaitaJ wrote:Having read Ajahn Brahm's book, Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond, this question keeps haunting me. With parinibbana described as the remainder-less cessation of everything, what is the difference between that and annihilation? I understand that as long as you're subject to rebirth, annihilation is wrong view. What I don't understand is how the results are different when you're no longer subject to rebirth. Everything ceases, right? The flame is extinguished, out, gone. It didn't go anywhere, it's just gone. So, how is this different from annihilation? :?:

Regards: AdvaitaJ
What is so bad about remainder-less cessation?


It is not annihilation because there is no one to be annihilated in the first place.




The suttas clearly state that :


1.Arahant/Tathagata is not found inside or outside of 5 aggregates. SN 22.85-86

2.Self or what belongs to self is not found in truth or reality. MN22

3.There is no permanent possession. MN22. 5 aggregates are impermanent SN22.97

4.Nibbāna is cessation of becoming. AN10.7. bhavanirodho nibbāna. IMHO cessation of becoming is not some new becoming, such as becoming an infinite consciousness.

5. Wouldn’t gaining a permanent, eternal, not subject to change consciousness be considered acquiring (ūpadhi) Something? But many suttas clearly say that Nibbana is calming of all fabrications and relinquishing of ALL acquisitions sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo – PTS A 4.423 (AN 9.36)


6. Five Aggregates cease and never reoccur when Parinibbāna happens. Thus what can remain and be oneself or possession of oneself? Why is there no sutta that says that at parinibbana 5 aggregates cease but some Consciousness remains?

7.There is no eternal and unchanging consciousness that transmigrates from sense base to sense base, much less from life to life. MN38. All consciousness is conditioned and dependently arisen.

8.“The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness (Viññāṇaṃ) has come to its end.” – Ud 8.9 Such is the description of Nibbāna.

9.Consciousness cannot be without other aggregates (which cease in parinibbāna)

"Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.”
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



What would be condition for consciousness in Nibbāna? OF what would it be aware? Wouldn’t its object of awareness be one of the aggregates? But then it would mean that something conditioned (aggregates) remain in Nibbāna…



Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ in DN11
In DN11 quote if one looks carefully, there are two questions and two answers to the questions of:
Q #1 Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing?
Q #2 Where are long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form brought to an end?

Q1) Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing?
A1) Consciousness without endless comparison, and radiant everywhere, Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing.

Q2) Where are long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form brought to an end?
A2) Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul, name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of consciousness each is here brought to an end.'"

There is absolutely no reason to believe that Viññāṇa remains in Nibbāna, and DN11 clearly states that consciousness ceases.


Remember that ALL things are dukkha. To posit something that remains eternally is only to posit an eternally existent dukkha and according to MN22 there isn’t anything that is permanent and everlasting not subject to change. The talk on ANY kind of existence in Nibbana betrays one's wish for eternal survival, even if it is in some unexplained form.

MN72 clearly states parinibbāna of Arahant is like flame going out. In fact the words extinguished is the same as word for Nibbāna. Just like extinguished flame doesn't become the whole world, same is with Arahant.


The metaphors for nibbāna is a flame going out that is simply reckoned as 'out' (nibbuto)

"If the fire burning in front of you were to go out (nibbāyeyya), would you know that, 'This fire burning in front of me has gone out (nibbuto)'?"
"...yes..."

"And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?'
Thus asked, how would you reply?"

"That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished — from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other — is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



=
“What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"
"No, my friend."
"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"
"No, my friend."
"And so, my friend Yamaka — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
=
"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
=
"Monks, you would do well to possess that possession, the possession of which would be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change, that would stay just like that for an eternity. But do you see that possession, the possession of which would be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change, that would stay just like that for an eternity?"
"No, lord."
"Very good, monks. I, too, do not envision a possession, the possession of which would be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change, that would stay just like that for an eternity.
"Monks, you would do well to cling to that clinging to a doctrine of self, clinging to which there would not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair. But do you see a clinging to a doctrine of self, clinging to which there would not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair?"


"Monks, where there is a self, would there be [the thought,] 'belonging to my self'?"
"Yes, lord."
"Or, monks, where there is what belongs to self, would there be [the thought,] 'my self'?"
"Yes, lord."
"Monks, where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality, then the view-position — 'This cosmos is the self. After death this I will be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change. I will stay just like that for an eternity' — Isn't it utterly & completely a fool's teaching?"
"What else could it be, lord? It's utterly & completely a fool's teaching."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

=
[Sariputta] how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"
[Yamaka] "Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, venerable sir, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else. [Buddha] Sàti, how is that consciousness? [Sati] Venerable sir, this uttering and feeling one, that reaps the results of actions good and evil done here and there. [Buddha:] Foolish man, to whom do you know me having preached this Teaching. Haven't I told, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, you foolish man, because of your wrong grasp, blame me, destroy yourself, and accumulate much demerit and that will be for your undoing and unpleasantness for a long time.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ta-e1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' ‘etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ yadidaṃ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbāna’nti.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... 9.than.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Is consciousness that good? Lets see SN12.63 Ven. TB trans. Consciousness is like being speared 300 times per day and yet magically being alive to feel the agony. So it is a calamity, a disaster to have consciousness and such a relief when it ceases!
““And how is the nutriment of consciousness to be regarded? Suppose that, having arrested a thief, a criminal, they were to show him to the
king: ‘This is a thief, a criminal for you, your majesty. Impose on him whatever punishment you like.’ So the king would say, ‘Go, men, and
stab him in the morning with a hundred spears.’ So they would stab him in the morning with a hundred spears. Then the king would say at noon, ‘Men, how is that man?’ ‘Still alive, your majesty.’ So the king would say, ‘Go, men, and stab him at noon with a hundred spears.’ So they would stab him at noon with a hundred spears. Then the king would say in the evening, ‘Men, how is that man?’ ‘Still alive, your majesty.’ So the king would say, ‘Go, men, and stab him in the evening with a hundred spears.’ So they would stab him in the evening with a hundred spears. Now what do you think, monks: Would that man, being stabbed with three hundred spears a day, experience pain & distress from that cause?” “Even if he were to be stabbed with only one spear, lord, he would experience pain & distress from that cause, to say nothing of three hundred spears.” “In the same way, I tell you, monks, is the nutriment of consciousness to be regarded. When the nutriment of consciousness is comprehended, name & form are comprehended. When name & form are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do
.” — SN 12:63
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

nathan
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by nathan » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:23 pm

AdvaitaJ wrote:Having read Ajahn Brahm's book, Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond, this question keeps haunting me. With parinibbana described as the remainder-less cessation of everything, what is the difference between that and annihilation? I understand that as long as you're subject to rebirth, annihilation is wrong view. What I don't understand is how the results are different when you're no longer subject to rebirth. Everything ceases, right? The flame is extinguished, out, gone. It didn't go anywhere, it's just gone. So, how is this different from annihilation? :?:

Regards: AdvaitaJ
There is a difference but it is impossible to describe. It is impossible to describe because nibbana has no conditions which can be described and all language is based on conditions and describes conditions and conditional relations. It is impossible to describe because nibbana contains no consciousness condition or time condition or space condition and so it is only described in terms of the absence of all dependently originating conditions. It is not annihilation of conditions as dependently originated conditions continue for the apparent universe at large and for all apparent beings sustained by varying degrees of delusion and fundamental ignorance and it is not eternal as it neither arises nor passes. Reasoning is inadequate for comprehending nibbana as the conditions which sustain reason cannot contact or comprehend nibbana. It can be said that nibbana "is" and that it "is" what "is" when dependently arising and passing conditions are consciously, with insight and understanding, willfully and entirely abandoned, be this for a moment or for a period of time or with the lasting cessation of the dependent conditions that bound up together make up the appearances of being and becoming.

What conditions need to be developed and what conditions need to be abandoned in order to stop or to make an end to dependently originating conditions is what can be described and what can be done in order to realize nibbana but nibbana can not be said to be understandable. So what we can do is undertake the path that leads to the realization but no one can or ever will be able to communicate the nature of this realization because it is forever beyond range of understanding or description.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by rowyourboat » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:03 am

Nibbana paccaya consciousness (vinnana)?

Vinnana paccaya nibbana?

There is no such causal connection, to reflect (mirror like) off each other. There can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu.

Consciousness only reflects Nama-rupa.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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kirk5a
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by kirk5a » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:27 pm

rowyourboat wrote: There can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu.
Could you provide a sutta passage which states that? Thanks.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Alex123
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by Alex123 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:42 pm

kirk5a wrote:
rowyourboat wrote: There can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu.
Could you provide a sutta passage which states that? Thanks.
If there is no objects, no mind-base (or mind-element), then no consciousness is possible

In various ways we are told, that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness. ...
Bhikkhus, founded on whatever, consciousness arises, it is reckoned on that.
On account of eye and forms arises consciousness, it's reckoned eye consciousness.
On account of ear and sounds arises consciousness, it's reckoned ear consciousness.
On account of nose and smells arises consciousness, it's reckoned nose consciousness.
On account of tongue and tastes arises consciousness, it's reckoned tongue consciousness.
On account of body and touches arises consciousness, it's reckoned body consciousness.
On account of mind and ideas arises consciousness, it's reckoned mind consciousness. Bhikkhus, just as based on whatever fire burns, it is reckoned by that. Fire ablaze with sticks is stick fire. Ablaze with twigs is twig fire. Ablaze with grass is grass fire. Ablaze with cow dung is cow dung fire. Ablaze with grain thrash is grain thrash fire. Ablaze with dirt is dirt fire.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ta-e1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for consciousness, i.e., name-and-form. ...This is the extent to which there are means of designation, expression, and delineation. This is the extent to which the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world — i.e., name-and-form together with consciousness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
When nibbana-without-remainder occurs, is there mind-base or mind-element, + something left?


No.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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kirk5a
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by kirk5a » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:50 pm

Hi Alex.

I'm not looking for any kind of deductive or inferential argument based upon any sutta passages.

I am interested in a sutta passage which directly, clearly and unambiguously states "there can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

rowyourboat
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by rowyourboat » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:06 pm

How about this one:
Any stress that comes into play
is all from consciousness
as a requisite
condition.
With the cessation of consciousness,
there is no stress
coming into play.
Knowing this drawback —
that stress comes from consciousness
as a requisite
condition —
with the stilling of consciousness, the monk
free from hunger
is totally unbound.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:16 pm

kirk5a wrote:Hi Alex.

I'm not looking for any kind of deductive or inferential argument based upon any sutta passages.

I am interested in a sutta passage which directly, clearly and unambiguously states "there can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu"
Maybe one needs to establish what is meant by nibbāna-dhātu, particularly by dhātu.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Alex123
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by Alex123 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:24 pm

kirk5a wrote:Hi Alex.
I am interested in a sutta passage which directly, clearly and unambiguously states "there can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu"
First, please define what you mean by nibbāna-dhātu. In this discussion we are talking about parinibbāna.

Second, how can anyone maintain that Viññāṇaṃ exists "in" parinibbāna?

The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness (Viññāṇaṃ) has come to its end.” – Ud 8.9 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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kirk5a
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by kirk5a » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:43 pm

Alex123 wrote:
kirk5a wrote:Hi Alex.
I am interested in a sutta passage which directly, clearly and unambiguously states "there can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu"
First, please define what you mean by nibbāna-dhātu.
Matheesha first used that term. He can say what he means.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Alex123
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by Alex123 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:48 pm

Kirk,

in any case, you know what the suttas state about viññāṇa and parinibbāna. It is the end of consciousness and there isn't anything "that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity".
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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