the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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cappuccino
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:09 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:58 am
All questions about Tathagata are Wrong Questions from the very start.
"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?" (correct question)

"No, my friend." (correct answer)

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?" (correct question)

"No, my friend." (correct answer)

"And so, my friend Yamaka — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death'?"

"Previously, my friend Sariputta, I did foolishly hold that evil supposition. But now, having heard your explanation of the Dhamma, I have abandoned that evil supposition, and have broken through to the Dhamma."
Yamaka Sutta: To Yamaka

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Zom » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:31 pm

It seems likely that when he thought of fire it was in a very elemental sense, fire being one his four great elements. By this I'm suggesting the fire represented to him the continuation of the five aggregates along with the whole mass of suffering and with the removal of its causes and conditions the fire goes out. Maybe this is what you meant by "flame". If it is, then then The Buddha definitely doesn't teach that ultimately aggregates don't exist, they just don't exist in and of themselves, without causes.
Flame simile is not about 1 aggregate, but all of them altogether. 5 existing aggregates = existence. So flame here = existence.
Flame going out = cessation of existence (nibbana). Just that simple.
The Buddha himself who is giving the answers, are you saying that he has wrong view of himself?
The Buddha does not give answers. He does not say: "Yes" or "No". He says these questions can't be answered. Why? His student, Ven. Isidatta explains. And Buddha too, btw, in another sutta SN 44.10.
So let us move on from telling everyone that they have wrong veiw
When someone hold a self-view, then he is holding a wrong view. I don't see a reason why this is bad to notice this. Actually it is good, because then he can rectify it.
But as we have seen in the sutta, when asked if he holds the view that after death the Tathagata ceases (the flame going out here) to exist the answer given is a definite no.
No. Flame going out is NOT the same as "Tathagata ceases". Why? Because flame is "existence", while "Tathagata" is "self". First one is real thing. Second is an illusion.
Last edited by Zom on Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:33 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:31 pm
Flame going out = cessation of existense (nibbana). Just that simple.

If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Zom » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:02 pm

[the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].
There are no such words in the sutta. This is a remark of a deluded translator, who believes in eternal consciousness.
Last edited by Zom on Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:04 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:02 pm
[the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].
There are no such words in the sutta. This is a remark of a deluded translator.
annihilationism isn't difficult to translate
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Zom » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:05 pm

annihilationism isn't difficult to translate, nor understand
Isn't. What is annihilationism? This is when someone believes in "self" (atta/atman), and thinks that this self is annihilated at some point.

DN1:

4. Annihilationism (Ucchedavāda): Views 51–57
84. "There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are annihilationists and who on seven grounds proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?

85. "Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin asserts the following doctrine and view: 'The self, good sir, has material form; it is composed of the four primary elements and originates from father and mother. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death, at this point the self is completely annihilated.' In this way some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

86. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self is completely annihilated. For there is, good sir, another self — divine, having material form, pertaining to the sense sphere, feeding on edible nutriment. That you neither know nor see, but I know it and see it. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death, at this point the self is completely annihilated.' In this way others proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:10 pm

annihilation is complete destruction or obliteration

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:12 pm

What is Nirvana?

It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End,
the Truth, the Other Shore, the Subtle,
the Everlasting, the Invisible, the Undiversified,
Peace, the Deathless, the Blest, Safety,
the Wonderful, the Marvellous,
Nibbæna, Purity, Freedom,
the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Zom » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:21 pm

annihilation is complete destruction or obliteration
So you don't agree with the Buddha. Well, ok then.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:39 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:21 pm
annihilation is complete destruction or obliteration
So you don't agree with the Buddha. Well, ok then.
https://www.google.com/search?q=annihilation+definition

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:41 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:05 pm
What is annihilationism? This is when someone believes in "self" and thinks that this self is annihilated at some point.
even an illusory death cannot happen

:quote: you say an illusory death will happen

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Polar Bear » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:16 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:12 pm
What is Nirvana?

It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End,
the Truth, the Other Shore, the Subtle,
the Everlasting, the Invisible, the Undiversified,
Peace, the Deathless, the Blest, Safety,
the Wonderful, the Marvellous,
Nibbæna, Purity, Freedom,
the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44
“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the taintless and the path leading to the taintless. Listen to that….

“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the truth and the path leading to the truth…. I will teach you the far shore … the subtle … the very difficult to see … the unaging … … the stable … the undisintegrating … the unmanifest … the unproliferated … the peaceful … the deathless … the sublime … the auspicious … … the secure …. the destruction of craving … the wonderful … the amazing … the unailing … the unailing state … Nibbāna … the unafflicted … dispassion … … purity … freedom … the unadhesive … the island … the shelter … the asylum … the refuge … …”

“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the destination and the path leading to the destination. Listen to that….

“And what, bhikkhus, is the destination? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the destination. - SN 43.14-44
Nibbana is not some substantial thingy-
“For those standing in the middle of a lake,” said venerable Kappa,
“when a fearful flood has arisen,
for those overcome by old age and death, speak about an island, dear Sir,
you must explain an island to me, so there will be no more after this.”
“For those standing in the middle of a lake, Kappa,” said the Gracious One,
“when a fearful flood has arisen,
for those overcome by old age and death, I speak about an island, Kappa:
“Having nothing, no attachment, this is the island with nothing beyond,
this is called Nibbāna, I say, the end of old age and death.

“Knowing this, those who are mindful, who are emancipated in this very life,
come not under Māra’s control, they are not servants to Māra.”

- https://suttacentral.net/snp5.11/en/anandajoti
“He who has no in-dwelling sense desires,” said venerable Todeyya,
“he in whom no craving is found,
he who crossed beyond doubts,
what kind of freedom is there for him?”
“He who has no in-dwelling sense desires,” said the Gracious One,
“he in whom no craving is found,
he who has crossed beyond doubts,
there is no further freedom for him.

“Is he without yearning, or is he still yearning?” said venerable Todeyya,
“Is he wise, or is he still acquiring wisdom?
I would know just what the sage is like, Sakyan:
Explain that to me, All-Seeing Visionary.”
“He is without yearning, he is not still yearning.
He is wise, he is not still acquiring wisdom.
Know that the Sage is just like this, Todeyya:
he has nothing, and is not clinging to sense existence.”

- https://suttacentral.net/snp5.10/en/anandajoti
:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:21 am

Polar Bear wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:16 am
Nibbana is not some substantial thingy-
the Other Shore, the Island

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Polar Bear » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:32 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:21 am
Polar Bear wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:16 am
Nibbana is not some substantial thingy-
the Other Shore, the Island
Out of curiosity, did you read the suttas I posted above?
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:43 am

Polar Bear wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:32 am
Out of curiosity, did you read the suttas I posted above?
yes

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