the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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cappuccino
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:33 pm

"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, my friend."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, my friend."

"And so, my friend Yamaka — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death'?"

"Previously, my friend Sariputta, I did foolishly hold that evil supposition. But now, having heard your explanation of the Dhamma, I have abandoned that evil supposition, and have broken through to the Dhamma."
Yamaka Sutta: To Yamaka

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Zom » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:39 pm

Again, here is how to read the text correctly, as I say, as Ven. Bodhi says, as ancient Theravadin commentators said:
"What do you think: Do you regard the [SELF of] Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, my friend."

"Do you regard the [SELF of] Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, my friend."

"And so, my friend Yamaka — when you can't pin down the [SELF of] Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a [SELF of] monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death'?"
If you still don't understand or don't consider what I'm saying as correct, you can read SN 41.3, where Ven. Isidatta directly says that all such question as posited in Yamaka sutta are based entirely on the view about "self" and thus must be understood as questions about "selfhood". If one understands them differently, one is grasping Dhamma in a wrong way.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:03 pm

Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?

Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:20 pm

As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death
Previously, my friend Sariputta, I did foolishly hold that evil supposition. But now, having heard your explanation of the Dhamma, I have abandoned that evil supposition, and have broken through to the Dhamma.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by equilibrium » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:45 pm

“Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the unconditioned!

What three? No arising is seen, no vanishing is seen, and no alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the unconditioned.” [AN 3.47]

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Seymour » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:36 am

Zom wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:16 pm
Do you see what I mean?
Final nibbana is the non-existence of flame in this simile. Flame stops to exist and that's it. In conventional sense, of course. Because ultimately there is no flame at all. Again, if you see what I mean.

Non-existence of flame which once existed in not conditioned.
To be honest , no I don't see what you mean, partly because this is starting to feel like mind games. Also there is definitely no need to try and convince me that Nibbana is somewhere "physically" over the rainbow.
But reading this again was helpful.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25336&hilit=Absence+of

People have different views on the matter, period.

To me MN 72 is describing more then just a flame.
Yes, there is the simile portion of that sutta, which to me acts as an illustration of the points made, the numerous questions asked and how the answers given can have truth simultaneously. It is here that I was referring to, particularly the questions about existence and non-existence of the Tathagata after death and the mind of an arahant. From what I have gathered it appears as though when explaining this truth it must be done in terms of conditionality, referring to it in other ways might be off the mark and cause confusion.

The *tathā-āgata* having *thus come* to the realisation of dependent origination, the conditions leading to suffering and its end, knows that there is no substantial self in this to exist or non-exist or both or neither ect. and is the *tathā-gata* as such, having *thus gone* beyond.
Only pretending to know the meaning of Tathagata, I have seen that there are several interpretations, don't listen to me Im only slightly clever. :pig:

Just for fun.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25336&hilit=Absence+of

agree to disagree, but what's s good is that
A) I still don't know what I believe.
B) We can still be friends.
Simple living high thinking.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Seymour » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:39 am

Seymour wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:36 am
To me MN 72 is describing more then just a flame.
Yes, there is the simile portion of that sutta, which to me acts as an illustration of the points made, the numerous questions asked and how the answers given can have truth simultaneously.
To clarify here when I said "have truth" I meant the reason connected with why Buddha rejected all such veiws, and obviously not that they were all true. Then, with the simile your given a less convoluted view or expression and a better understanding of why he rejected the others as well as a clearer understanding of Dhamma.
Simple living high thinking.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Zom » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:58 am

To me MN 72 is describing more then just a flame.
Of course it does not. Thinking that "there is something hidden behind a flame" is sakkaya-ditthi, wrong view about "a self'. A self of flame in this case.
But flame simply goes out, and no "self of flame" is destroyed in the process, because it had none. And no "self of flame" remains too, because there were none.

Yes, there is the simile portion of that sutta, which to me acts as an illustration of the points made, the numerous questions asked and how the answers given can have truth simultaneously. It is here that I was referring to, particularly the questions about existence and non-existence of the Tathagata after death and the mind of an arahant. From what I have gathered it appears as though when explaining this truth it must be done in terms of conditionality, referring to it in other ways might be off the mark and cause confusion.
All questions about Tathagata are Wrong Questions from the very start. All of them imply that there is a "Self of Tathagata". This is why Buddha anwsers that all of them are wrong, incorrect, and are impossible to answer. Because they are wrongly put.

To realize that one can change these "tathagata questions" into "pink unicorn questions":

"Does a pink unicorn exist after death?" etc etc. The question can't be answered as "yes" or "no", because it is stupid from the very start. Same with "tathagatha's self".

In SN 41.3 Ven. Isidatta explains that all such questions are based on the view of self. If you ASK such a question - you have a wrong view already! This is why all these questions are wrong - and no answers can be given to wrong questions.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Seymour » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:37 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:16 pm
Final nibbana is the non-existence of flame in this simile. Flame stops to exist and that's it. In conventional sense, of course. Because ultimately there is no flame at all. Again, if you see what I mean.

Non-existence of flame which once existed in not conditioned.
I guess I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "flame" this is just a simile and not a doctrinal principal.
As to why a flame is used in the simile, it is a very fitting phenomena, even though you could choose any among the five aggregates to make a case, something that clearly needs fuel to keep a-going is something easily understood in terms of its causes & conditions. A flame represented many things to different people of that time, today as well (Agni).
It seems likely that when he thought of fire it was in a very elemental sense, fire being one his four great elements. By this I'm suggesting the fire represented to him the continuation of the five aggregates along with the whole mass of suffering and with the removal of its causes and conditions the fire goes out. Maybe this is what you meant by "flame". If it is, then then The Buddha definitely doesn't teach that ultimately aggregates don't exist, they just don't exist in and of themselves, without causes.
We can agreed on this, we must work to eradicate the three unwholesome roots as this will most definitely bring us closer to Nibbana. But as we have seen in the sutta, when asked if he holds the view that after death the Tathagata ceases (the flame going out here) to exist the answer given is a definite no. Surely he didn't have any confused views as our friend Yamaka did and surely he gave this answer for a reason. This reason as the sutta also tells us, so as not to become tangled in a thicket of views accompanied by suffering, distress, despair ect... (ill let you do the reading).
To the question of whether or not Nibbana can be reduced to the destruction of the unwholesome roots, this seems to be a thicket of its own. We will have to continue to study and contemplate on this. Unfortunately I have to log off for awhile but I think it has been a beneficial discussion.
Simple living high thinking.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Seymour » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:41 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:58 am
In SN 41.3 Ven. Isidatta explains that all such questions are based on the view of self. If you ASK such a question - you have a wrong view already! This is why all these questions are wrong - and no answers can be given to wrong questions.
Just looking over the sutta SN 41, the questions asked are not the same as in MN 72 where the questions have to do with holding veiws and here it looks like he did give an answer. It's also different from the verses to Yamaka because In MN 72 it is The Buddha himself who is giving the answers, are you saying that he has wrong view of himself? Theoretically I think we at least have a hold on the concept, the aggregates are not self, have never been self, they're empty of self, void of self, they don't have their own autonomous existence, they arise only with the arising of other factor, the are not worth having or being & not worth clinging to. So let us move on from telling everyone that they have wrong veiw :anjali:
And about those pink elephants :goodpost:
Last edited by Seymour on Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:25 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:09 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:58 am
All questions about Tathagata are Wrong Questions from the very start.
"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?" (correct question)

"No, my friend." (correct answer)

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?" (correct question)

"No, my friend." (correct answer)

"And so, my friend Yamaka — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death'?"

"Previously, my friend Sariputta, I did foolishly hold that evil supposition. But now, having heard your explanation of the Dhamma, I have abandoned that evil supposition, and have broken through to the Dhamma."
Yamaka Sutta: To Yamaka

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Zom » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:31 pm

It seems likely that when he thought of fire it was in a very elemental sense, fire being one his four great elements. By this I'm suggesting the fire represented to him the continuation of the five aggregates along with the whole mass of suffering and with the removal of its causes and conditions the fire goes out. Maybe this is what you meant by "flame". If it is, then then The Buddha definitely doesn't teach that ultimately aggregates don't exist, they just don't exist in and of themselves, without causes.
Flame simile is not about 1 aggregate, but all of them altogether. 5 existing aggregates = existence. So flame here = existence.
Flame going out = cessation of existence (nibbana). Just that simple.
The Buddha himself who is giving the answers, are you saying that he has wrong view of himself?
The Buddha does not give answers. He does not say: "Yes" or "No". He says these questions can't be answered. Why? His student, Ven. Isidatta explains. And Buddha too, btw, in another sutta SN 44.10.
So let us move on from telling everyone that they have wrong veiw
When someone hold a self-view, then he is holding a wrong view. I don't see a reason why this is bad to notice this. Actually it is good, because then he can rectify it.
But as we have seen in the sutta, when asked if he holds the view that after death the Tathagata ceases (the flame going out here) to exist the answer given is a definite no.
No. Flame going out is NOT the same as "Tathagata ceases". Why? Because flame is "existence", while "Tathagata" is "self". First one is real thing. Second is an illusion.
Last edited by Zom on Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:33 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:31 pm
Flame going out = cessation of existense (nibbana). Just that simple.

If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Zom » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:02 pm

[the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].
There are no such words in the sutta. This is a remark of a deluded translator, who believes in eternal consciousness.
Last edited by Zom on Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:04 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:02 pm
[the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].
There are no such words in the sutta. This is a remark of a deluded translator.
annihilationism isn't difficult to translate
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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