Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

User1249x wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:25 amit is always either a mistranslation or a fake sutta with you lol gn

DooDoot wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:25 am

User1249x wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:25 amit is always either a mistranslation or a fake sutta with you lol gn

Its not fake. Its a mistranslation. The study of Dhamma is not about rigid adherence to translations.


The translation is wrong. I proved it as wrong.

User1249x wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:30 amAll the english translators translate it either Deathless or Nibbana, which terms is actually used in Pali i dont even care.

All phenomena, including samsara, gain footing in the deathless.

DooDoot wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:35 am

User1249x wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:30 amAll the english translators translate it either Deathless or Nibbana, which terms is actually used in Pali i dont even care.

The error in the translation is the translation of 'dhamma' into 'phenomena'. As a result of blind unquestioning adherence to this translation, your mind concocted the wrong view that:

All phenomena, including samsara, gain their footing in the deathless.

User1249x wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:38 amThe meaning is clearly all sankharas are gaining footing in the deathless... Your argument is invalid, better call fake sutta

DooDoot wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:35 am

User1249x wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:30 amAll the english translators translate it either Deathless or Nibbana, which terms is actually used in Pali i dont even care.

The error in the translation is the translation of 'dhamma' into 'phenomena'. As a result of blind unquestioning adherence to this translation, your mind appeared to concoct (manufacture) the wrong view that:

All phenomena, including samsara, gain footing in the deathless.

“‘Friends, (1) all things are rooted in desire. (2) They come into being through attention. (3) They originate from contact. (4) They converge upon feeling. (5) They are headed by concentration. (6) Mindfulness exercises authority over them. (7) Wisdom is their supervisor. (8) Liberation is their core. (9) They culminate in the deathless. (10) Their consummation is nibbāna.’
https://suttacentral.net/an10.58

mikenz66 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:42 am Here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, which seems more logical to me:

DooDoot wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:39 am

User1249x wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:38 amThe meaning is clearly all sankharas are gaining footing in the deathless... Your argument is invalid, better call fake sutta

The sutta is not fake. As for the idea "all sankharas are gaining footing in the deathless" this is plainly ridiculous & has zero support in the Pali suttas. There are multitudes of suttas that support the right view of AN 10.58.

“‘Friends, (1) all things are rooted in desire. (2) They come into being through attention. (3) They originate from contact. (4) They converge upon feeling. (5) They are headed by concentration. (6) Mindfulness exercises authority over them. (7) Wisdom is their supervisor. (8) Liberation is their core. (9) They culminate in the deathless. (10) Their consummation is nibbāna.’

"'All phenomena are rooted in desire.[1]

"'All phenomena come into play through attention.

"'All phenomena have contact as their origination.

"'All phenomena have feeling as their meeting place.

"'All phenomena have concentration as their presiding state.

"'All phenomena have mindfulness as their governing principle.

"'All phenomena have discernment as their surpassing state.

"'All phenomena have release as their heartwood.

"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.

"'All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end.'

“‘Friends, (1) all things are rooted in desire. (2) They come into being through attention. (3) They originate from contact. (4) They converge upon feeling. (5) They are headed by concentration. (6) Mindfulness exercises authority over them. (7) Wisdom is their supervisor. (8) Liberation is their core. (9) They culminate in the deathless. (10) Their consummation is nibbāna.’

The last two items, amatogadhā sabbe dhammā and nibbānapariyosānā
sabbe dhammā, [(9) They culminate in the deathless. (10) Their consummation is nibbāna.’]seem to be synonymous.

A Chinese parallel, MĀ 113 (at T I 602c 1–16 ), makes the following assertions:
“All things are rooted in desire; all come together in contact; all converge on
feeling; all originate from attention; all are stopped by mindful-
ness (see Sn 1035); all are headed by concentration; wisdom is
above all; liberation is the truth (or core) of all; all have nibbāna
as their consummation.”

Interestingly, MĀ 113 continues (at T I 602c 17–28 ) with a passage that in AN correponds to the next sutta, 10:59, though rather than assure the monk who practices
in such a way one of two fruits, it states that he will definitely
attain arahantship.

User1249x wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:46 amlol this is direct sutta words not mine;

And how is discernment the surpassing state? There is the case where the Dhammas I have pointed out to my disciples are entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress. And however I have pointed out Dhammas for my disciples entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress, one has scrutinized them all with discernment.

“This is how discernment is the surpassing state.

“And how is release the heartwood? There is the case where the Dhammas I have pointed out to my disciples are entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress. And however I have pointed out Dhammas for my disciples entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress, one has touched them all through release.

“This is how release is the heartwood.

“And how is mindfulness the governing principle? The mindfulness that ‘I will make complete any training with regard to good conduct that is not yet complete, or I will protect with discernment any training with regard to good conduct that is complete’ is well established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will make complete any training with regard to the basics of the holy life that is not yet complete, or I will protect with discernment any training with regard to the basics of the holy life that is complete’ is well established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will scrutinize with discernment any Dhamma that is not yet scrutinized, or I will protect with discernment any Dhamma that has been scrutinized’ is well established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will touch through release any Dhamma that is not yet touched, or I will protect with discernment any Dhamma that has been touched’ is well established right within.

“This is how mindfulness is the governing principle.

https://suttacentral.net/en/an4.245[/i]

...the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

mikenz66 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:48 am Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes for AN 10.58:

DooDoot wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:49 am

User1249x wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:46 amlol this is direct sutta words not mine;

The Buddha did not teach in English. The Pali word 'dhamma' in the sutta does not mean 'things' or 'phenomena'. The original Commentary (Dīgha Porāṇa Ṭīkā) correctly said the meaning of 'dhamma' here is 'wholesome mental states'.

mikenz66 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:48 am Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes for AN 10.58:

Footnote 1801 for AN 8.83 (similar discourse).

“‘Friends, (1) all things are rooted in desire. (2) They come
into being through attention. (3) They originate from contact. (4)
They converge upon feeling. (5) They are headed by concentra-
tion. (6) Mindfulness exercises authority over them. (7) Wisdom
is their supervisor. (8) Liberation is their core.’ [1801]

[Note 1801]
Brahmāli (in a private communication) offers a fine explana-
tion of this cryptic sutta: “I understand sabbe dhammā to be a
reference to the world of personal experience. The meaning
would then be as follows: All elements of our experience are
rooted in desire (chandamūlakā) in the sense that we exist due to
desire (taking chanda as equivalent to craving). They come into
being through attention (manasikārasambhavā) in the sense that we
only experience what we attend to. They originate from contact
(phassasamudayā) because without contact we don’t experience
anything at all. They converge upon feeling (vedanāsamosaraṇā) in
the sense that feeling is the most important aspect of our expe-
rience, the basic motivating factor in everything we do. They
are headed by concentration (samādhippamukhā) in the sense that
concentration is a controlling faculty (an indriya) whose lead
all elements of our experience must follow. They are under the
authority of mindfulness (satādhipateyyā) because mindfulness is
another controlling faculty which directs us in whatever we do
or experience. All things have wisdom as supervisor (paññuttarā)
because wisdom is the chief of the controlling faculties; wisdom,
more than anything else, controls our experience (the last three
factors are what allow us to get a sense of being in charge of our
lives). That liberation is their core (vimuttisārā), the most excellent
of all things, is self-explanatory.”

mikenz66 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:01 am

[Note 1801]
Brahmāli (in a private communication) offers a fine explana-
tion of this cryptic sutta: “I understand sabbe dhammā to be a
reference to the world of personal experience. The meaning
would then be as follows: All elements of our experience are
rooted in desire (chandamūlakā) in the sense that we exist due to
desire (taking chanda as equivalent to craving). They come into
being through attention (manasikārasambhavā) in the sense that we
only experience what we attend to. They originate from contact
(phassasamudayā) because without contact we don’t experience
anything at all. They converge upon feeling (vedanāsamosaraṇā) in
the sense that feeling is the most important aspect of our expe-
rience, the basic motivating factor in everything we do. They
are headed by concentration (samādhippamukhā) in the sense that
concentration is a controlling faculty (an indriya) whose lead
all elements of our experience must follow. They are under the
authority of mindfulness (satādhipateyyā) because mindfulness is
another controlling faculty which directs us in whatever we do
or experience. All things have wisdom as supervisor (paññuttarā)
because wisdom is the chief of the controlling faculties; wisdom,
more than anything else, controls our experience (the last three
factors are what allow us to get a sense of being in charge of our
lives). That liberation is their core (vimuttisārā), the most excellent
of all things, is self-explanatory.”

Mike

User1249x wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:14 amthanks for posting very relevant obv.

DCM wrote: ↑Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:53 pmThis is something that has been bothering me for a while. If Nibbana is the cessation of everything, then what’s the aim of the spiritual quest? Nothingness?

This was said by the Lord…

Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbāna-elements. What are the two? The Nibbāna-element with residue left and the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

https://suttacentral.net/en/iti44