the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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cappuccino
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:20 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:59 pm
with faith in the wrong thing you don't possess understanding

yes I know

Seymour
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Seymour » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:03 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:35 pm


BHIKKHU BODHI - "Nibbana is not only the destruction of defilements and the end of samsara but a reality transcendent to the entire world of mundane experience, a reality transcendent to all the realms of phenomenal existence."
ZOM- While the main point of my post was to show that nibbana actually can be only a destruction of defilements and not a (rather useless, btw) transcendent reality .) Australian camp would agree 8-)
I might suggest just a tad bit of humility (just a suggestion) but I'm glad you had a chance to stick it to me so good and that your bros will have your back.
SEYMOUR- I'm starting to question the benefits of continuing
I Thank you for making that extra clear.
Simple living high thinking.

Dinsdale
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:45 am

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:51 pm
Buddhism isn't fancy atheism
Nor is it pseudo-theism, or grasping at comforting views and beliefs.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Seymour
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Seymour » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:36 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:45 am
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:51 pm
Buddhism isn't fancy atheism
Nor is it pseudo-theism, or grasping at comforting views and beliefs.
Or on occasion views in general.
Simple living high thinking.

Mudryj
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Mudryj » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:19 am

Nibbana has nature of a peace and non-exestence of awery "things" - that definition We find in the tradition from Buddhagosha and to our days. It just does not means that Nibbana include such things as vinnana, citta or anything denoting ability to experience, or as well as It is not non-exestence itself (Expressed in a different way, if Nibbana, as casation, do not be realy, termination of an aggregates and a sinful conditions would not be possible to achieve; It would not be possible to divert the attention from conditioned aggregates and still remain conscious in order to know this with wisdom - сonsciousness neads an object of awareness to function).

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cappuccino
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:05 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:45 am
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:51 pm
Buddhism isn't fancy atheism
Nor is it pseudo-theism, or grasping at comforting views and beliefs.
Buddhist cosmology has gods and angels, heavens and hells, etc.

boundless
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by boundless » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:53 am

aflatun wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:12 pm
boundless wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:35 pm
Hi,

to give further evidence for your hypothesis I found this section of the "Kathavatthu" (Abhidhamma) https://suttacentral.net/en/kv1.6:
Theravādin: If you assert that the material-aggregate retains its materiality, you must admit that the material-aggregate is permanent, persistent, eternal, not subject to change. You know that the opposite is true; hence it should not be said that materiality is retained.

Nibbāna does not abandon its state as Nibbāna—by this we mean Nibbāna is permanent, persistent, eternal, not subject to change. And you ought to mean this, too, in the case of material-aggregate, if you say that the latter does not abandon its materiality.
It seems that the view of the "permanent Nibbana" was well estabilished when (at least this part of) the Abhidhamma was written.

Of course there were many schools and hence many views and many opinions. Personally I think that the "non-existence" view is mistaken since it seems too reductionistic!

Regarding Nagarjuna personally I have a very hard time to understand him.

However I have a veryhard time to understand a lot of things but also it is true that:
[The Blessed One]: "This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise..." //www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn06
Welcome boundless, and thank you for sharing the great find! :thumbsup:
To give even more evidence to the hypothesis above, I found other two passages in the Pali Canon that seem to describe Nibbana positively as "permanent" (nicca).

In the Culaniddesa (a canonical commentary included in the Khuddaka Nikaya) there is a passage at Cnd 22 where we find:
"Nibbānaṃ niccaṃ dhuvaṃ sassataṃ avipariṇāmadhammanti—asaṃhīraṃ asaṃkuppaṃ.", i.e. "Nibbana is permanent (niccaṃ), stable (dhuvaṃ), eternal (sassataṃ), not subject to change (avipariṇāmadhammanti) - unshakeable (asaṃhīraṃ), undomitable (asaṃkuppaṃ)" (in fact "Nibbānaṃ niccaṃ dhuvaṃ sassataṃ avipariṇāmadhammanti" also appears in the passage of the Kathavatthu quoted above (in that translation apparently "dhuva" was translated as "persistent" instead of "stable") .)

Finally there is a passage in the Patisambhidamagga (another canonical commentary found in the Khuddhaka Nikaya) Ps 3.9 :
"Pañcannaṃ khandhānaṃ nirodho niccaṃ nibbānanti..." (the cessation of the five aggregates is permanent, Nibbana)

I think that we now have sufficient evidence to conclude like Lance Cousins in his article Nibbana and Abhidhamma that:
It seems clear that although lists of unconditioned dharmas varied among the schools to some extent, they were all agreed that there were unconditioned dharmas and that the unconditioned dharma(s) were not the mere absence of the conditioned. Only the Sautrantikas and allied groups disputed this last point.

boundless
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by boundless » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:56 pm

To be honest, since I know almost nothing of Pali, I want to make a clarification about what I wrote in the post above.

Regarding the excerpt of the Patisambhidamagga I am basing my translation on a passage of the book "The Selfless MInd" by professor Peter Harvey. In Chapter 2 he writes the translation:
..."the stopping (nirodho) of the five personality-factors is the permanent, nibbana"...(Ps.II.238-41)
"personality-factors" is his translation of "khandhas" (aggregates).

[Corrections are, of course, welcomed. Thanks in advance]

:anjali:

Seymour
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Seymour » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:24 am

Zom wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:35 pm


2) state doesn't mean that there something must exist as a thing. State can be a just a sitation. In case of nibbana - situation of non-existence. Or, this can mean nibbana with a residue, which is simply the mind of arahant without greed, hatred, and delusion.

8-)

While the main point of my post was to show that nibbana actually can be only a destruction of defilements and not a (rather useless, btw) transcendent reality .) Australian camp would agree 8-)
I thought I was finished here, but then a few points came to mind. It's possible that we began our discussion on the wrong foot. Therefore it might be important to reiterate that I don't hold any particular stance on this issue. That being said there are some reasons why I wouldn't so easily jump to one side of the discussion or debate. At least that's what I would hope to have here, a discussion because I find it hard to debate about something such as this that I have no personal experience of but instead only know some of what is said about it. Our sole purpose does not have to be proving ourselves correct, in fact this approach is not at all enjoyable and might be some what discouraging in my opinion, to others who want to share ideas, ask questions, get clarification or feedback ect. or those who are just interested in Dhamma in general. Instead I hope to give and receive "food for thought"

My first dish is more of an inquiry, that is, if Nibbana is said to be unconditioned as in Udana 8:3

http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/ati ... el.ati.htm

then wouldn't calling it the mere distrution of the defilments be going against this, placing it within the relm of conditions? It being contingent uppon the absence of something else. Almost exactly the same as what Ven. Bodhi was describing, Nibbana not being conditioned by the practice of the Eightfold Path. It would also seem to go aginst every other description in that particular sutta as well, brought into being and made by removing x,y&z. And If it wasn't brought into being by this removal then could it be possible that it already existed? and couldn't we then call it a "reality"?(I hesitate to use that word here).

But discribeing final Nibbana as non-existence was clearly rejected in MN 72

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

and if you were willing to call it a "reality" (call it whatever... a cita) sounds like a rather transcendent one, one that lies beyond the scope of "usefulness"
Simple living high thinking.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:35 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:05 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:45 am
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:51 pm
Buddhism isn't fancy atheism
Nor is it pseudo-theism, or grasping at comforting views and beliefs.
Buddhist cosmology has gods and angels, heavens and hells, etc.
Various realms are described in the suttas. The point of Buddhist practice is to attain liberation from the three realms, not to grasp at them.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Seymour
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Seymour » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:16 pm

:oops: destruction * :tantrum: Not at all trying to take away from the practical side of things. (My interests in Buddhism pretty well started and continues to be influenced by the work of Buddhadasa, I think we all know his way of teaching is not the traditional.) This practical way of seeing things is essential. I think there is a pretty firm consensus among Buddhists and possibly a fair amount of non Buddhists that even the subtlest of defilements must be eradicated in order to realize this ultimate deliverance from suffering (pativedha) but there are also other aspects to consider, so as long as we are considering (pariyatti) and not wrapped in samadhi (patipatti).
Simple living high thinking.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Zom » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:16 pm

then wouldn't calling it the mere distrution of the defilments be going against this, placing it within the relm of conditions? It being contingent uppon the absence of something else. Almost exactly the same as what Ven. Bodhi was describing, Nibbana not being conditioned by the practice of the Eightfold Path. It would also seem to go aginst every other description in that particular sutta as well, brought into being and made by removing x,y&z. And If it wasn't brought into being by this removal then could it be possible that it already existed? and couldn't we then call it a "reality"?(I hesitate to use that word here).
First, there are 2 types of nibbana - with residue and without. First one, as I see it, and as Ven. Sariputta says, is "just a destruction of defilements". Which is well, the mind of arahant.

Then, there is 2nd type - without residue. This is not "psychical nibbana", but a "real one", a final one. It is this nibbana which is unconditioned, but in a sense, that absense of something simply can not be conditioned at all! When arahant dies, his nibbana (extinguishing) is not conditioned, for were it conditioned, he might appear once again somewhere - when these conditions disappear. Do you see what I mean?
But discribeing final Nibbana as non-existence was clearly rejected in MN 72
Final nibbana is the non-existence of flame in this simile. Flame stops to exist and that's it. In conventional sense, of course. Because ultimately there is no flame at all. Again, if you see what I mean.

Non-existence of flame which once existed in not conditioned.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:00 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:16 pm
Again, if you see what I mean.

Again Zom you're preaching annihilation
Last edited by cappuccino on Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:16 pm

If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].
Ananda Sutta: To Ananda
(On Self, No Self, and Not-self)

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Zom » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:43 pm

Again Zom you're preaching annihilation
Again, you are showing that you still attach to sakkaya-ditthi, which are wrong views.

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