the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
Posts: 8068
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by SarathW » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:23 pm

It's unreasonable to practice anything without knowing the final fruit.
Agree.
But if you become a Sotapanna then you can have a taste of Nibbana.
It is gradual training.
You take the second step once you have completed the first step.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6333
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Mkoll » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:14 am

Akhandha wrote:It's unreasonable to practice anything without knowing the final fruit.
I'm not so sure about that. To use some analogies...

Practicing a sport you love with the hope of playing professionally—is there any guarantee that will be your fruit? Do you know what it will be like to actually play professionally?

Going to school to study for a future job you want—is there any guarantee you'll get it? Is there any guarantee it'll be like you think it will be? Might you end up not liking it?

Planting and taking care of crops in the hope that they will yield fruit—do you know what you're going to get? Might your crops be destroyed by disease, pests, or the weather?

When an explorer goes off to uncharted territories, they don't know what they'll find, they don't know the final fruit of that journey, but they do it anyway. Will they come back with stories of adventure and become famous or will they perish in a jungle, far away from home?

All of it is uncertain. We may not know the final fruit of developing something, but we do it anyway because it's necessary or we enjoy it or for some other reason. We have to make up our own reasons for doing things or we wouldn't do anything at all...

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

SarathW
Posts: 8068
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by SarathW » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:45 am

It seems Akhanda's problem is s/he is not sure of what Nibbna means and what happens when you attain Nibbna.

I think s/he should be reading the following Sutta.

Safe bet.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 1677
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Zom » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:49 am

Nibbana is the ending of greed, hatred, delusion. Enough for practice ,)

User avatar
Akhandha
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:53 pm
Location: Russia, Moscow
Contact:

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Akhandha » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:33 pm

Zom wrote:Nibbana is the ending of greed, hatred, delusion. Enough for practice ,)
It's also the end of love, happiness and desire to exist. And nothing clear about consciousness.
It's like a computer which was turned off... Zero point.

Doubtful pleasure for me)

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6333
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Mkoll » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:09 pm

Might be worth thinking about...
SN 35.91 wrote:“Bhikkhus, being stirred is a disease, being stirred is a tumour, being stirred is a dart. Therefore, bhikkhus, the Tathagata dwells unstirred, with the dart removed. Therefore, bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu should wish, ‘May I dwell unstirred, with the dart removed!’ he should not conceive the eye … forms … eye-consciousness … eye-contact … and as to whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition … he should not conceive that, should not conceive in that, should not conceive from that, should not conceive, ‘That is mine.’ For whatever one conceives, bhikkhus, whatever one conceives in, whatever one conceives from, whatever one conceives as ‘mine’—that is otherwise. The world, becoming otherwise, attached to existence, seeks delight only in existence.

“He should not conceive the ear … He should not conceive the mind … mental phenomena … mind-consciousness … mind-contact … and as to whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition … he should not conceive that, should not conceive in that, should not conceive from that, should not conceive, ‘That is mine.’ For whatever one conceives, bhikkhus, whatever one conceives in, whatever one conceives from, whatever one conceives as ‘mine’—that is otherwise. The world, becoming otherwise, attached to existence, seeks delight only in existence.

“Whatever, bhikkhus, is the extent of the aggregates, the elements, and the sense bases, he does not conceive that, does not conceive in that, does not conceive from that, does not conceive, ‘That is mine.’

“Since he does not conceive anything thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’”
:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

User avatar
Akhandha
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:53 pm
Location: Russia, Moscow
Contact:

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Akhandha » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:29 pm

Mkoll wrote: Not clinging, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’”

What's good in non-existence?... never_doing_nothing.... oh, so boring))
Maybe, this total peace is good after a long suffering. For some time. But not for ever.

As for conscience without "myself" - I'm acquainted with these states. I like them very much. It's real bliss. In these states there is no emotions, no thinking, only oceanic awareness. What I'm not ready to give up - is conscience. Awareness.

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6333
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Mkoll » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:51 pm

Akhandha wrote:What's good in non-existence?... never_doing_nothing.... oh, so boring))
Maybe, this total peace is good after a long suffering. For some time. But not for ever.
The view that Nibbana = non-existence is just that: a view. Part of the cultivation of wisdom is developing the understanding of views.
AN 10.96 wrote:[Venerable Ananda:]"'The cosmos is eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless,' is a viewpoint. 'The cosmos is not eternal... The cosmos is finite... The cosmos is infinite... The soul & the body are the same... The soul is one thing and the body another... After death a Tathagata exists... After death a Tathagata does not exist... After death a Tathagata both does & does not exist... After death a Tathagata neither does nor does not exist. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless,' is a viewpoint. The extent to which there are viewpoints, view-stances, the taking up of views, obsessions of views, the cause of views, & the uprooting of views: that's what I know. That's what I see. Knowing that, I say 'I know.' Seeing that, I say 'I see.' Why should I say 'I don't know, I don't see'? I do know. I do see."
As for conscience without "myself" - I'm acquainted with these states. I like them very much. It's real bliss. In these states there is no emotions, no thinking, only oceanic awareness. What I'm not ready to give up - is conscience. Awareness.
It sounds like you like you have cultivated calm quite a bit. I'd suggest you cultivate insight more. For example, the perception of impermanence is a great practice and is one the Buddha recommended to householders.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

User avatar
Akhandha
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:53 pm
Location: Russia, Moscow
Contact:

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Akhandha » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:21 pm

the perception of impermanence is a great practice
forms of energy change all the time, but the energy itself never disappears.
there is deep calm underneath everything that moves and changes. this calm never changes. an ever clear awareness.
I understand well what Dzogchen and Mahayana are talking about. And I can't understand the Theravada buddism to the end because of these ideas that awareness (consciousness) is to be given up. I simply don't understand WHAT remains.

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 1677
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Zom » Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:30 pm

It's also the end of love, happiness and desire to exist.
As long as there is greed, there is greed for love,greed for happiness, and desire to exist -)
One day you'll realize, that things based on greed are not satisfactory in their very nature. One day...

Exactly
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:40 am

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Exactly » Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:14 pm

What's good in non-existence?... never_doing_nothing.... oh, so boring))
Maybe, this total peace is good after a long suffering. For some time. But not for ever.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

User avatar
Nicolas
Posts: 659
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:59 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Nicolas » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:17 pm

Exactly wrote:[...]
:goodpost:
Nibbānasukha Sutta (AN 9.34) wrote:Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
Akhandha wrote:Doubtful pleasure for me)
Bahuvedanīya Sutta (MN 59) wrote:It is possible, Ananda, that wanderers of other sects might speak thus: 'The recluse Gotama speaks of the cessation of perception and feeling and he describes that as pleasure. What is this, and how is this?' Wanderers of other sects who speak thus should be told: 'Friends, the Blessed One describes pleasure not only with reference to pleasant feeling; rather, friends, the Tathagata describes as pleasure any kind of pleasure wherever and in whatever way it is found.'
Akhandha wrote:What's good in non-existence?... never_doing_nothing.... oh, so boring))
Maybe, this total peace is good after a long suffering. For some time. But not for ever.
Only boring if there is a being to crave existence and doing.
AN 1.328-332 wrote:Bhikkhus, just as even a trifling amount of feces/urine/saliva/pus/blood is foul-smelling, so too I do not praise even a trifling amount of existence, even for a mere finger snap.
+ First Noble Truth + Anicca + Dukkha + Anatta.
There is dukkha inherent in being. The lack of dukkha in non-being is preferable to any kind of being.

SarathW
Posts: 8068
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by SarathW » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:31 pm

What's good in non-existence?...
Buddha rejected both existence and non-existence and taught dependent origination.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6333
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Mkoll » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:58 pm

Akhandha wrote:
the perception of impermanence is a great practice
forms of energy change all the time, but the energy itself never disappears.
there is deep calm underneath everything that moves and changes. this calm never changes. an ever clear awareness.
So you believe you have found something permanent in your experience?
Akhandha wrote:I understand well what Dzogchen and Mahayana are talking about. And I can't understand the Theravada buddism to the end because of these ideas that awareness (consciousness) is to be given up. I simply don't understand WHAT remains.
Have you visited Dharma Wheel and tried sharing your views there? You may be surprised, AFAIK.

I feel like this must be said: you seem very confident of your views and attainments, yet still have questions and doubts about them. There is a contradiction there. That is worthy of investigating.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

Caodemarte
Posts: 708
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Caodemarte » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:14 am

Akhandha wrote:
the perception of impermanence is a great practice
forms of energy change all the time, but the energy itself never disappears.
there is deep calm underneath everything that moves and changes. this calm never changes. an ever clear awareness.
I understand well what Dzogchen and Mahayana are talking about. And I can't understand the Theravada buddism to the end because of these ideas that awareness (consciousness) is to be given up. I simply don't understand WHAT remains.
As I understand consciousness is not to be given up in Nibbana in any of the forms of Buddhism you mention. Attachment is. Clinging to concepts such as "consciousness", awareness," "energy," " I am," or even "giving up" is. So if yoo feeling bliss, are aware or unaware in meditation there is still far to go. Or so I have been told by Mahayanists and Theravadins.

Nibbana or enlightenment (or reality itself) cannot be described with limited words so asking questions about it will not get any good answers. So get enlightened, go to Nibbana, answer your question and come tell us!

Many Buddhist meditation manuals warn against the mistake of confusing unconsciousness with meditation. Being zoned out or dead to the world is not useful. Otherwise the sleeping or the dead would be model Buddhists in Nibbana!
Last edited by Caodemarte on Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

JohnK
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:06 pm
Location: Tetons, Wyoming, USA

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by JohnK » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:24 am

Consciousness is one of the aggregates, arahants do not cling to them, do not create a self out of them, but the aggregates are still there. So the answer would be "yes."
As that seems simple, I must be wrong! ;)
"Why is it, Master Kaccana, that ascetics fight with ascetics?"
"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics" (AN 2: iv, 6, abridged).
Kindly eyes, not verbal daggers.

SamKR
Posts: 969
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:33 pm

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by SamKR » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:54 am

Akhandha wrote: ...
I simply don't understand WHAT remains.
The following words of wise Sariputta and the Buddha are worth considering:
[Sariputta:] "The statement, 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?' objectifies non-objectification.[1] The statement, '... is it the case that there is not anything else ... is it the case that there both is & is not anything else ... is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectifies non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Nibbana is allaying of objectification and proliferation. To ask above statements is to objectify and proliferate non-objectifiable and non-proliferable, and therefore a kind of a paradox (by using these two words in bold, I am still objectifying and proliferating, in a way).
"He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, let him not conceive things about Unbinding, let him not conceive things in Unbinding, let him not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, let him not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' let him not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? So that he may comprehend it, I tell you.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
(Thanissaro Bhikkhu translates Nibbana as unbinding)
Last edited by SamKR on Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

SamKR
Posts: 969
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:33 pm

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by SamKR » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:14 am

Akhandha wrote:...there is deep calm underneath everything that moves and changes. this calm never changes. an ever clear awareness.
I understand well what Dzogchen and Mahayana are talking about. And I can't understand the Theravada buddism to the end because of these ideas that awareness (consciousness) is to be given up. ...
Some forms of Mahayana and Dzogchen may talk about it, but the Theravada position (as I perceive) is that the concepts "clear awareness underneath everything that never changes..." is unnecessary, and maybe counter-productive. These concepts are maps (usually the wrong maps) and not the territory, and therefore better be avoided. With no pre-conception or pre-conceiving, there comes a possibility to directly realize the non-conceptual, non-proliferation, non-objectification.

pegembara
Posts: 1142
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by pegembara » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:38 am

Akhandha wrote:
Mkoll wrote: Not clinging, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’”

What's good in non-existence?... never_doing_nothing.... oh, so boring))
Maybe, this total peace is good after a long suffering. For some time. But not for ever.

As for conscience without "myself" - I'm acquainted with these states. I like them very much. It's real bliss. In these states there is no emotions, no thinking, only oceanic awareness. What I'm not ready to give up - is conscience. Awareness.
The reason for this is that this "consciousness" is taken as "me, mine and myself". It is the same with Bhikkhu Sati. The Buddha made it clear consciousness doesn't stand on its own because it doesn't truly exist but is just a dependently coarisen phenomenon!

Giving up form, feeling, perception. mental activities but keeping consciousness is all good. That's 4/5 khandhas. Just one more to akhanda. :anjali:
"Is it true, friend Sāti, that this pernicious viewpoint has arisen in you — 'As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another'?"

"Exactly so, friends. I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One such that it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another."

Then those monks, desiring to pry the monk Sāti the Fisherman's Son away from that pernicious viewpoint, quizzed him back & forth and rebuked him, saying, "Don't say that, friend Sāti. Don't slander the Blessed One, for it is not good to slander the Blessed One. The Blessed One would not say anything like that. In many ways, friend, the Blessed One has said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 10750
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by DNS » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:44 am

Image

Many of us have relatively happy and pleasant lives, so it is easy to see how craving for existence can hold its grip. Often this is found in pleasures of the senses, good food, good friends, entertainment. When it is finished, we move on to the next pleasure, the next entertainment. However, it is not lasting and what happens in between, when the pleasures fade, when it is not so pleasant? So most of us try to piece the pleasures close together as in a movie reel, to give the illusion of continual happiness.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Crazy cloud, Domeniko, Google [Bot] and 51 guests