the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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cappuccino
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Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Post by cappuccino » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:03 pm

Viññanam anidassanam. This term is nowhere explained in the Canon, although MN 49 mentions that it "does not partake in the allness of the All" — the "All" meaning the six internal and six external sense media (see SN 35.23). In this it differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media. Lying outside of time and space, it would also not come under the consciousness-aggregate, which covers all consciousness near and far; past, present, and future. However, the fact that it is outside of time and space — in a dimension where there is no here, there, or in between (Ud 1.10), no coming, no going, or staying (Ud 8.1) — means that it cannot be described as permanent or omnipresent, terms that have meaning only within space and time. The standard description of nibbana after death is, "All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here." (See MN 140 and Iti 44.) Again, as "all" is defined as the sense media, this raises the question as to whether consciousness without feature is not covered by this "all." However, AN 4.174 warns that any speculation as to whether anything does or doesn't remain after the remainderless stopping of the six sense media is to "objectify non-objectification," which gets in the way of attaining the non-objectified. Thus this is a question that is best put aside.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Matthew 7

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cappuccino
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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links?

Post by cappuccino » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:57 pm

Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?

And the answer to that is:

Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around
:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Kevatta the householder delighted in the Blessed One's words.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-1
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Matthew 7

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:10 pm

In light of the above, this is worth reading: Nibbana is not viññāṇa. Really, it just isn’t
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:15 pm

Yes, that's in the original thread for non-Thanissaro enthusiasts:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=27956

:anjali:
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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Post by SarathW » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:17 pm

Nibbana is not the consciousness which has no footing.
Nibbana is where the consciousness has no footing.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:24 pm

SarathW wrote:Nibbana is not the consciousness which has no footing.
Nibbana is where the consciousness has no footing.
Spot on.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Post by cappuccino » Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:40 pm

"It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"
Yamaka Sutta
Matthew 7

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tiltbillings
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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:06 pm

cappuccino wrote:"It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"
Yamaka Sutta
And, cap, what exactly is your point here? Are you addressing directly in this quote the immediately above two msgs? Are you suggesting that we are misrepresentlng the Buddha?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Post by davidbrainerd » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:10 pm

cappuccino wrote:"It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"
Yamaka Sutta
MN 78 I think (edit: no, its MN 72), the discussion with Vacagotta, he specifically is against saying that a tathagata continues to exist and that a tathagata ceases to exist. Vacagotta is obviously justifiably confused, and Buddha explains its because "material form" no longer applies. So, in other words, saying that "tathagata continues to exist" he doesn't want to say lest someone misunderstand it as continuing to exist in "material form," but also "that a tathagata ceases to exist" he doesn't want to say because he doesn't cease to exist he only ceased to exist in "material form." This is a complicated way Buddha seeks to explain this, and its stilted, and there is a simpler way to explain it, but we're stuck with the canon as it is. Nonethless, the obvious thing he is saying is there is a self that continues to exist but not in a physical way or "material form" kind of way.

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Post by cappuccino » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:42 pm

tiltbillings wrote:what exactly is your point here?
the Blessed One would not say, A monk with no more effluents, does not exist after death.
Matthew 7

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Post by cappuccino » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:47 pm

all conditioned or unconditioned things are not self
Matthew 7

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Post by cjmacie » Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:13 am

Suttanipata 1076 (Thanissaro translation)
"One who has reached the end
has no criterion.
by which anyone would say that –
for him it doesn't exist.
When all phenomena are done away with,
all means of speaking
are done away
with as well."

K.R.Norman translation (according to Alexander Wynne)
'There is no measuring of one who has gone out, Upasiva', said the Blessed One.
'That no longer exists for him by which they might speak of him.
When all phenomena have been removed, then all ways of speaking are also removed.'

Pali CST 4.0 (1082 [?] )
‘‘Atthaṅgatassa na pamāṇamatthi, (upasīvāti bhagavā)
Yena naṃ vajjuṃ taṃ tassa natthi;
Sabbesu dhammesu samohatesu, samūhatā vādapathāpi sabbe’’ti.


So, what are all you here trying to talk about?

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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Post by theY » Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:29 am

Goofaholix wrote:
“A bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to. When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he abides contemplating impermanence in those feelings, contemplating fading away, contemplating cessation, contemplating relinquishment. Contemplating thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. MN 37.3

“[After having the insight that the formless [meditation] states are conditioned, a bhikkhu] does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being. Since he does not form any condition or generate any volition tending toward either being or non-being, he does not cling to anything in this world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana.” MN 140.22

“When ignorance is abandoned and true knowledge has arisen in a bhikkhu, then with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, he no longer clings to sensual pleasures, no longer clings to views, no longer clings to rules and observances, no longer clings to a doctrine of self (attavāda). When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana.(parinibbāyati).” (parinibbayati [from nibbuta]; completely unbound/calmed/pacified) MN 11.17

“A bhikkhu is practicing thus: ‘It might not be, and it might not be mine; it will not be, and it will not be mine. What exists, what has come to be, that I am abandoning.’ Thus he obtains equanimity. He does not delight in that equanimity, welcome it, or remain holding to it. Since he does not do so, his consciousness does not become dependent on it and does not cling to it. A bhikkhu without clinging attains Nibbana.” MN 106.12
“A bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to. When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he abides contemplating impermanence in those feelings, contemplating fading away, contemplating cessation, contemplating relinquishment. Contemplating thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. MN 37.3 <<< you cut anupadisesanibbāna off?

"na kiñci loke upādiyati anupādiyaṃ na paritassati aparitassaṃ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati(saupādisesanibbāna) khīṇā jāti(=anupādisesanibbāna=never have next khandha) vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ nāparaṃ itthattāyāti pajānāti"

---------------------------------

“[After having the insight that the formless [meditation] states are conditioned, a bhikkhu] does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being. Since he does not form any condition or generate any volition tending toward either being or non-being, he does not cling to anything in this world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana.” MN 140.22 <<< you still cut it like previous sutta.

"na kiñci loke upādiyati anupādiyaṃ na paritassati aparitassaṃ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati(saupādisesanibbāna) khīṇā jāti(=anupādisesanibbāna=never have next khandha) vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ nāparaṃ itthattāyāti pajānāti"

---------------------------------

“When ignorance is abandoned and true knowledge has arisen in a bhikkhu, then with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, he no longer clings to sensual pleasures, no longer clings to views, no longer clings to rules and observances, no longer clings to a doctrine of self (attavāda). When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana.(parinibbāyati).” (parinibbayati [from nibbuta]; completely unbound/calmed/pacified) MN 11.17 <<< you still cut it like previous sutta.

"na kiñci loke upādiyati anupādiyaṃ na paritassati aparitassaṃ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati(saupādisesanibbāna) khīṇā jāti(=anupādisesanibbāna=never have next khandha) vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ nāparaṃ itthattāyāti pajānāti"

---------------------------------

“A bhikkhu is practicing thus: ‘It might not be, and it might not be mine; it will not be, and it will not be mine. What exists, what has come to be, that I am abandoning.’ Thus he obtains equanimity. He does not delight in that equanimity, welcome it, or remain holding to it. Since he does not do so, his consciousness does not become dependent on it and does not cling to it (kilesaupasama, saupādisesa). A bhikkhu without clinging attains (upa) Nibbana (sama) (khanda-upasama,anupādisesa).” MN 106.12

This sutta talking about sekkha-puggala who have parts of saupādisesanibbāna, but have not anupādisesa nibbāna.

The signification is in this paragraph of sutta. It is talking about Saupadisesapuggala who has not Anupadisesanibbāna:

apetthekacco ānanda bhikkhu (sekkha-puggala who have parts of saupādisesanibbāna) parinibbāyeyya apetthekacco bhikkhu na parinibbāyeyyāti(anupādisesanibbāna) ฯ

---------------------------------

Nibbāna in your whole suttas (that you cut some part off) is cessation in taṇhā by context signification. It is saupādisesanibbāna. So this sutta is not talk about arahā dead.

But in mahāparinibbānasutta the split nibbāna to 2 type: saupādisesanibbāna and anupādisesanibbāna. Because mahāparinibbānasutta is talking about dukkhakkhandha of arahā (buddha who being sick) and he going to pass all dukkha to anupādisesanibbāna.

So cessation in mahāparinibbānasutta is cessation in whole khandha 11: atītā-#nagata#-paccuppanna-ajjhatta-pahiddha-oḷarika-sukhuma-dūra-santika.


So if you say: arahā just nibbāna in this life, it is equal of "living arahā have dukkha". So nibbāna is not important anymore because person who nibbāna still having dukkha.

---------------------------------

It is very easy. Just read pure pali.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Saoshun » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:24 pm

Putting it very simple.

Nibbana is not you disappearing but disappearing what is not you, that's why it can not be nihilism and eternalism at the same time.
Last edited by Saoshun on Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Remember… the Buddha had said that everyone living in this world is crazy, by the phrase, “Sabbē prutajjana ummattakā”; excluding the Arahants, everyone else is crazy. Would you get angry if a mad person scolds? Do we get angry for a crazy thing done by a crazy person? Just think about it! :candle:

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Zom » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:29 pm

Nibbana is not you disappearing but disappearing what is not you
:goodpost:

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Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by SarathW » Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:13 pm

Is there consciousness in Nibbana?
Hi Akhanda
I am please to see your interest in this subject.
I used to ask the same question as a child asking the parents when they are going for a picnic, "Are we there yet? what it is like?"
The child ask this question because s/he is interested in the destination , not the journey.
When we pay too much attention to the destination, we will not be able to enjoy the journey.
The other problems is no matter how much words the parent used the child will not understand the destination until S/he reach there.

So best thing is to experience a minor signposts like Jhana.
If you practice you will naturally get there.

================
"Unbinding lies on the other side of release."

"What lies on the other side of Unbinding?"

"You've gone too far, friend Visakha. You can't keep holding on up to the limit of questions. For the holy life gains a footing in Unbinding, culminates in Unbinding, has Unbinding as its final end. If you wish, go to the Blessed One and ask him the meaning of these things. Whatever he says, that's how you should remember it."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Akhandha » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:34 pm

Hi, SarathW

It's an absolutely natural thing to want to know where I'm going to.
It's strange not to know where you are going to.
Jhanas - yes, I'm acquianted with them.

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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by SarathW » Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:19 am

want to know where I'm going to
This is the self view. (the thought, I ,me an myself)
Until you eliminate self view (Sakkaya Dithi) you will never know (the glimpse of) what Nibbana means.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Mkoll » Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:41 am

Akhandha wrote:Is there consciousness in Nibbana?:
There are other suttas in a similar vein as this one, all essentially saying that its indescribable:
SN 35.83 wrote:Then the Venerable Phagguna approached the Blessed One … and said to him: “Venerable sir, is there any eye by means of which one describing the Buddhas of the past could describe them—those who have attained final Nibbāna, cut through proliferation, cut through the rut, exhausted the round, and transcended all suffering? Is there any ear by way of which one describing the Buddhas of the past could describe them?… Is there any mind by way of which one describing the Buddhas of the past could describe them—those who have attained final Nibbāna, cut through proliferation, cut through the rut, exhausted the round, and transcended all suffering?”

“There is no eye, Phagguna, by means of which one describing the Buddhas of the past could describe them—those who have attained final Nibbāna, cut through proliferation, cut through the rut, exhausted the round, and transcended all suffering. There is no ear by means of which one describing the Buddhas of the past could describe them…. There is no mind by means of which one describing the Buddhas of the past could describe them—those who have attained final Nibbāna, cut through proliferation, cut through the rut, exhausted the round, and transcended all suffering.”
I think that one of the purposes of such suttas is to teach people to focus on where they should be focusing: the practice. Most of the teachings in the suttas are focused on just that. Comparatively few are about the details of the fruit—and for good reason!

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Akhandha » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:41 pm

Mkoll wrote: “There is no eye, Phagguna, by means of which one describing the Buddhas of the past could describe them—those who have attained final Nibbāna, cut through proliferation, cut through the rut, exhausted the round, and transcended all suffering. There is no ear by means of which one describing the Buddhas of the past could describe them…. There is no mind by means of which one describing the Buddhas of the past could describe them—those who have attained final Nibbāna, cut through proliferation, cut through the rut, exhausted the round, and transcended all suffering.”
Maybe, they simply annihilated?
It's unreasonable to practice anything without knowing the final fruit.

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