the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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cappuccino
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Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Postby cappuccino » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:03 pm

Viññanam anidassanam. This term is nowhere explained in the Canon, although MN 49 mentions that it "does not partake in the allness of the All" — the "All" meaning the six internal and six external sense media (see SN 35.23). In this it differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media. Lying outside of time and space, it would also not come under the consciousness-aggregate, which covers all consciousness near and far; past, present, and future. However, the fact that it is outside of time and space — in a dimension where there is no here, there, or in between (Ud 1.10), no coming, no going, or staying (Ud 8.1) — means that it cannot be described as permanent or omnipresent, terms that have meaning only within space and time. The standard description of nibbana after death is, "All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here." (See MN 140 and Iti 44.) Again, as "all" is defined as the sense media, this raises the question as to whether consciousness without feature is not covered by this "all." However, AN 4.174 warns that any speculation as to whether anything does or doesn't remain after the remainderless stopping of the six sense media is to "objectify non-objectification," which gets in the way of attaining the non-objectified. Thus this is a question that is best put aside.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
The standard description of nibbana after death is,
"All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links?

Postby cappuccino » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:57 pm

Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?

And the answer to that is:

Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around
:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Kevatta the householder delighted in the Blessed One's words.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.11.0.than.html#fnt-1
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The standard description of nibbana after death is,
"All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:10 pm

In light of the above, this is worth reading: Nibbana is not viññāṇa. Really, it just isn’t
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:15 pm

Yes, that's in the original thread for non-Thanissaro enthusiasts:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=27956

:anjali:
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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Postby SarathW » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:17 pm

Nibbana is not the consciousness which has no footing.
Nibbana is where the consciousness has no footing.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:24 pm

SarathW wrote:Nibbana is not the consciousness which has no footing.
Nibbana is where the consciousness has no footing.
Spot on.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Postby cappuccino » Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:40 pm

"It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"
Yamaka Sutta
The standard description of nibbana after death is,
"All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:06 pm

cappuccino wrote:"It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"
Yamaka Sutta
And, cap, what exactly is your point here? Are you addressing directly in this quote the immediately above two msgs? Are you suggesting that we are misrepresentlng the Buddha?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Postby davidbrainerd » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:10 pm

cappuccino wrote:"It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"
Yamaka Sutta


MN 78 I think (edit: no, its MN 72), the discussion with Vacagotta, he specifically is against saying that a tathagata continues to exist and that a tathagata ceases to exist. Vacagotta is obviously justifiably confused, and Buddha explains its because "material form" no longer applies. So, in other words, saying that "tathagata continues to exist" he doesn't want to say lest someone misunderstand it as continuing to exist in "material form," but also "that a tathagata ceases to exist" he doesn't want to say because he doesn't cease to exist he only ceased to exist in "material form." This is a complicated way Buddha seeks to explain this, and its stilted, and there is a simpler way to explain it, but we're stuck with the canon as it is. Nonethless, the obvious thing he is saying is there is a self that continues to exist but not in a physical way or "material form" kind of way.

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Postby cappuccino » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:42 pm

tiltbillings wrote:what exactly is your point here?


the Blessed One would not say, A monk with no more effluents, does not exist after death.
The standard description of nibbana after death is,
"All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."

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cappuccino
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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Postby cappuccino » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:47 pm

all conditioned or unconditioned things are not self
The standard description of nibbana after death is,
"All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."

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Re: Consciously experiencing the unconditioned and the twelve links? Thanissaro Version

Postby cjmacie » Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:13 am

Suttanipata 1076 (Thanissaro translation)
"One who has reached the end
has no criterion.
by which anyone would say that –
for him it doesn't exist.
When all phenomena are done away with,
all means of speaking
are done away
with as well."

K.R.Norman translation (according to Alexander Wynne)
'There is no measuring of one who has gone out, Upasiva', said the Blessed One.
'That no longer exists for him by which they might speak of him.
When all phenomena have been removed, then all ways of speaking are also removed.'

Pali CST 4.0 (1082 [?] )
‘‘Atthaṅgatassa na pamāṇamatthi, (upasīvāti bhagavā)
Yena naṃ vajjuṃ taṃ tassa natthi;
Sabbesu dhammesu samohatesu, samūhatā vādapathāpi sabbe’’ti.


So, what are all you here trying to talk about?

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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby theY » Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:29 am

Goofaholix wrote:
“A bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to. When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he abides contemplating impermanence in those feelings, contemplating fading away, contemplating cessation, contemplating relinquishment. Contemplating thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. MN 37.3

“[After having the insight that the formless [meditation] states are conditioned, a bhikkhu] does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being. Since he does not form any condition or generate any volition tending toward either being or non-being, he does not cling to anything in this world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana.” MN 140.22

“When ignorance is abandoned and true knowledge has arisen in a bhikkhu, then with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, he no longer clings to sensual pleasures, no longer clings to views, no longer clings to rules and observances, no longer clings to a doctrine of self (attavāda). When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana.(parinibbāyati).” (parinibbayati [from nibbuta]; completely unbound/calmed/pacified) MN 11.17

“A bhikkhu is practicing thus: ‘It might not be, and it might not be mine; it will not be, and it will not be mine. What exists, what has come to be, that I am abandoning.’ Thus he obtains equanimity. He does not delight in that equanimity, welcome it, or remain holding to it. Since he does not do so, his consciousness does not become dependent on it and does not cling to it. A bhikkhu without clinging attains Nibbana.” MN 106.12



“A bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to. When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he abides contemplating impermanence in those feelings, contemplating fading away, contemplating cessation, contemplating relinquishment. Contemplating thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. MN 37.3 <<< you cut anupadisesanibbāna off?

"na kiñci loke upādiyati anupādiyaṃ na paritassati aparitassaṃ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati(saupādisesanibbāna) khīṇā jāti(=anupādisesanibbāna=never have next khandha) vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ nāparaṃ itthattāyāti pajānāti"

---------------------------------

“[After having the insight that the formless [meditation] states are conditioned, a bhikkhu] does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being. Since he does not form any condition or generate any volition tending toward either being or non-being, he does not cling to anything in this world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana.” MN 140.22 <<< you still cut it like previous sutta.

"na kiñci loke upādiyati anupādiyaṃ na paritassati aparitassaṃ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati(saupādisesanibbāna) khīṇā jāti(=anupādisesanibbāna=never have next khandha) vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ nāparaṃ itthattāyāti pajānāti"

---------------------------------

“When ignorance is abandoned and true knowledge has arisen in a bhikkhu, then with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, he no longer clings to sensual pleasures, no longer clings to views, no longer clings to rules and observances, no longer clings to a doctrine of self (attavāda). When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana.(parinibbāyati).” (parinibbayati [from nibbuta]; completely unbound/calmed/pacified) MN 11.17 <<< you still cut it like previous sutta.

"na kiñci loke upādiyati anupādiyaṃ na paritassati aparitassaṃ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati(saupādisesanibbāna) khīṇā jāti(=anupādisesanibbāna=never have next khandha) vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ nāparaṃ itthattāyāti pajānāti"

---------------------------------

“A bhikkhu is practicing thus: ‘It might not be, and it might not be mine; it will not be, and it will not be mine. What exists, what has come to be, that I am abandoning.’ Thus he obtains equanimity. He does not delight in that equanimity, welcome it, or remain holding to it. Since he does not do so, his consciousness does not become dependent on it and does not cling to it (kilesaupasama, saupādisesa). A bhikkhu without clinging attains (upa) Nibbana (sama) (khanda-upasama,anupādisesa).” MN 106.12

This sutta talking about sekkha-puggala who have parts of saupādisesanibbāna, but have not anupādisesa nibbāna.

The signification is in this paragraph of sutta. It is talking about Saupadisesapuggala who has not Anupadisesanibbāna:

apetthekacco ānanda bhikkhu (sekkha-puggala who have parts of saupādisesanibbāna) parinibbāyeyya apetthekacco bhikkhu na parinibbāyeyyāti(anupādisesanibbāna) ฯ

---------------------------------

Nibbāna in your whole suttas (that you cut some part off) is cessation in taṇhā by context signification. It is saupādisesanibbāna. So this sutta is not talk about arahā dead.

But in mahāparinibbānasutta the split nibbāna to 2 type: saupādisesanibbāna and anupādisesanibbāna. Because mahāparinibbānasutta is talking about dukkhakkhandha of arahā (buddha who being sick) and he going to pass all dukkha to anupādisesanibbāna.

So cessation in mahāparinibbānasutta is cessation in whole khandha 11: atītā-#nagata#-paccuppanna-ajjhatta-pahiddha-oḷarika-sukhuma-dūra-santika.


So if you say: arahā just nibbāna in this life, it is equal of "living arahā have dukkha". So nibbāna is not important anymore because person who nibbāna still having dukkha.

---------------------------------

It is very easy. Just read pure pali.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/2016/09/tipitaka-memorization-is-rule-of-monks.html

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Postby Saoshun » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:24 pm

Putting it very simple.

Nibbana is not you disappearing but disappearing what is not you, that's why it can not be nihilism and eternalism at the same time.
Last edited by Saoshun on Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Remember… the Buddha had said that everyone living in this world is crazy, by the phrase, “Sabbē prutajjana ummattakā”; excluding the Arahants, everyone else is crazy. Would you get angry if a mad person scolds? Do we get angry for a crazy thing done by a crazy person? Just think about it! :candle:

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Postby Zom » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:29 pm

Nibbana is not you disappearing but disappearing what is not you


:goodpost:

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Nibbāna

Postby Mohan Gnanathilake » Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:02 pm

The Pali word Nibbāna is formed of Ni and Vāna. Ni is a negative particle and Vāna means lusting or craving. “It is called Nibbāna, in that it is a departure from the craving which is called Vāna, lusting.” Literally, Nibbāna means non-attachment.
It may also be defined as the extinction of lust, hatred and ignorance. “The whole world is in flames,” says the Buddha. “By what fire is it kindled? By the fire of lust, hatred and ignorance, by the fire of birth, old age, death, pain, lamentation, sorrow, grief and despair it is kindled.”
It should not be understood that Nibbāna is a state of nothingness or annihilation owing to the fact that we cannot perceive it with our worldly knowledge. One cannot say that there exists no light just because the blind man does not see it. In that well-known story, too, the fish arguing with his friend, the turtle, triumphantly concluded that there exists no land.
Nibbāna of the Theravada Buddhists is neither a mere nothingness nor a state of annihilation, but what it is no words can adequately express.

***Submitted by Mohan Barathi Gnanathilake***

The source of this post is “Buddhism in a Nutshell” by Venerable Narada Mahathera.
Last edited by Mohan Gnanathilake on Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with impure mind pain follows him like the wheel the hoof of the ox.
(Dhammapada 1, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)

All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind –made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind happiness follows him like one’s shadow that never leaves.
(Dhammapada 2, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)

Mr.Mohan Barathi Gnanathilake
Permanent Address : No. 372 / 2 , Mahara Prison Road , Ragama, Sri Lanka.
Telephone No :+94 112957857
Email :moh.bar.gna1975@gmail.com

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Re: Nibbāna

Postby Mohan Gnanathilake » Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:04 pm

The Pali word Nibbāna is formed of Ni and Vāna. Ni is a negative particle and Vāna means lusting or craving. “It is called Nibbāna, in that it is a departure from the craving which is called Vāna, lusting.” Literally, Nibbāna means non-attachment.
It may also be defined as the extinction of lust, hatred and ignorance. “The whole world is in flames,” says the Buddha. “By what fire is it kindled? By the fire of lust, hatred and ignorance, by the fire of birth, old age, death, pain, lamentation, sorrow, grief and despair it is kindled.”
It should not be understood that Nibbāna is a state of nothingness or annihilation owing to the fact that we cannot perceive it with our worldly knowledge. One cannot say that there exists no light just because the blind man does not see it. In that well-known story, too, the fish arguing with his friend, the turtle, triumphantly concluded that there exists no land.
Nibbāna of the Theravada Buddhists is neither a mere nothingness nor a state of annihilation, but what it is no words can adequately express.

***Submitted by Mohan Barathi Gnanathilake***

The source of this post is “Buddhism in a Nutshell” by Venerable Narada Mahathera.



As a Theravada Buddhist I believe that only when all defilements have been eradicated will there be no cause any more which can produce a next life, and thus there will be no more rebirth. That means the end of all sorrow. Nibbāna is the end of rebirth because nibbāna is the end of defilements.

People may think that it is not very desirable not to be born again. If we have not attained nibbāna we cannot imagine what nibbāna is like. It does not make much sense therefore to speculate about nibbāna. At the present moment we can experience our defilements; we can experience the sorrow which is caused in the world by greed, hatred and ignorance.

When wisdom is highly developed nibbāna can be realized. Defilements are so deeply rooted that they can only be eradicated stage by stage.
All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with impure mind pain follows him like the wheel the hoof of the ox.
(Dhammapada 1, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)

All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind –made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind happiness follows him like one’s shadow that never leaves.
(Dhammapada 2, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)

Mr.Mohan Barathi Gnanathilake
Permanent Address : No. 372 / 2 , Mahara Prison Road , Ragama, Sri Lanka.
Telephone No :+94 112957857
Email :moh.bar.gna1975@gmail.com

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The Path to Nibbana

Postby Mohan Gnanathilake » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:12 pm

How is Nibbana to be attained?
It is by following the Noble Eightfold Path which consists of Right Understanding (sammā-diṭṭhi), Right Thought (sammā-sankappa), Right Speech (Sammā-vācā), Right Action (sammā-kammanta), Right Livelihood (sammā-ājīva), Right Effort (sammā-vāyāma), Right Mindfulness (sammā-sati), and Right Concentration (sammā-samādhi).

***Submitted by Mohan Barathi Gnanathilake***

The source of this post is “Buddhism in a Nutshell” by Venerable Narada Mahathera
All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with impure mind pain follows him like the wheel the hoof of the ox.
(Dhammapada 1, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)

All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind –made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind happiness follows him like one’s shadow that never leaves.
(Dhammapada 2, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)

Mr.Mohan Barathi Gnanathilake
Permanent Address : No. 372 / 2 , Mahara Prison Road , Ragama, Sri Lanka.
Telephone No :+94 112957857
Email :moh.bar.gna1975@gmail.com

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Re: The Path to Nibbana

Postby Mohan Gnanathilake » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:14 pm

Mohan Gnanathilake wrote:How is Nibbana to be attained?
It is by following the Noble Eightfold Path which consists of Right Understanding (sammā-diṭṭhi), Right Thought (sammā-sankappa), Right Speech (Sammā-vācā), Right Action (sammā-kammanta), Right Livelihood (sammā-ājīva), Right Effort (sammā-vāyāma), Right Mindfulness (sammā-sati), and Right Concentration (sammā-samādhi).

***Submitted by Mohan Barathi Gnanathilake***

The source of this post is “Buddhism in a Nutshell” by Venerable Narada Mahathera


As a Theravada Buddhist I believe that anything in the world can urge us to develop the Noble Eightfold Path, until the goal is attained: the eradication of attachment or ‘lobha’, aversion or ‘dosa’ and ignorance ‘moha’.A very precise knowledge of all the different phenomena which appear should be developed in order to see them as they are, as Soul-lessness or ‘annattā’, beyond control. This is the development of the Noble Eightfold Path.
All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with impure mind pain follows him like the wheel the hoof of the ox.
(Dhammapada 1, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)

All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind –made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind happiness follows him like one’s shadow that never leaves.
(Dhammapada 2, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)

Mr.Mohan Barathi Gnanathilake
Permanent Address : No. 372 / 2 , Mahara Prison Road , Ragama, Sri Lanka.
Telephone No :+94 112957857
Email :moh.bar.gna1975@gmail.com

SamKR
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Re: The Path to Nibbana

Postby SamKR » Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:23 pm

Mohan Gnanathilake wrote:How is Nibbana to be attained?
...

"Nibbana to be attained" sounds oxymoron to me because Nibbana is the end of attainments (or the obsessive need to attain anything), and it it a good example of limitation of language/concepts to talk about what is beyond concepts, and of course there is a need to use different seemingly contradictory statements aimed towards people at different levels of understanding.
:anjali:


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