the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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murphythecat8
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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby murphythecat8 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:58 pm

its a state of consciousness?

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cappuccino
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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby cappuccino » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:28 pm

murphythecat8 wrote:its a state of consciousness?


The standard description of nibbana after death is, "All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."
The standard description of nibbana after death is,
"All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:33 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:See: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=2409#p33515 for a detailed discussion.


Clearly the Udana passage is describing Nibbana, and it would make sense for unborn, unbecome etc to be adjectives describing it.

I think the ambiguity is really around the meaning of "There is" and "There exists". Does this mean that Nibbana exists now, or does it mean Nibbana is a potential state of mind?


There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-
conditioned. -- J. Ireland

There is, monks, an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated. --
Thanissaro

Monks, there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-
compounded. -- F.L. Woodward

There exists, monks, that in which there is no birth, where nothing has come
into existence, where nothing has been made, where there is nothing conditioned.
-- P. Masefield


The "un-words" are adjectives. The subject in the sentence is left unspoken. Try this:

        There is, monks, [nibbana] unborn, unbecome, unmade, unfabricated.
Now your job is to exegetically examine these adjectives in their various sutta contexts to see what they actually have to say about, how they are used in relation to, the word they are describing -- nibbana. It is a rather interesting and informative endeavor. Good luck.


It sounds like I have some homework to do. ;)
But seriously, I am, as always, trying to understand what the suttas mean, and trying to relate them to the way I experience things. To put it very clumsily, I experience a great stillness beneath the movement of the sense bases, the challenge is trying to understand what that means. Or perhaps I am just thinking too much.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:35 pm

tiltbillings wrote:For myself, doing the practice is enough, and in a very real way, what I am practicing for is dying, death. If one cannot sit with an equanimous, concentrated mindful mind in face of the dangerous mind states, I suspect one will find it a bit more difficult to face the moments of death. I deal with death directly, with the dying and with their families before and after the death of their loved one. If I have to have a goal, it is to have a good death, to be as much awake as possible as I die. After that, I am not worried.


:goodpost:
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

davidbrainerd
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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby davidbrainerd » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:40 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:See: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=2409#p33515 for a detailed discussion.


Clearly the Udana passage is describing Nibbana, and it would make sense for unborn, unbecome etc to be adjectives describing it.

I think the ambiguity is really around the meaning of "There is" and "There exists". Does this mean that Nibbana exists now, or does it mean Nibbana is a potential state of mind?


There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-
conditioned. -- J. Ireland

There is, monks, an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated. --
Thanissaro

Monks, there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-
compounded. -- F.L. Woodward

There exists, monks, that in which there is no birth, where nothing has come
into existence, where nothing has been made, where there is nothing conditioned.
-- P. Masefield


Wouldn't a state of mind be born, made, fabricated? Unless it exists now and always has, its not unborn, unmade, unfabricated. A state of mind tapping in to a dimension that has always existed is different from something that is only a state of mind and thus is born, made, created, arisen, conditional, etc. etc.

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cappuccino
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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby cappuccino » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:58 pm

A fire is made but its cessation is different. Imagine being that fire, rather than disregarding its condition, after ceasing. Being out, not merely out.
The standard description of nibbana after death is,
"All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:55 pm

suttametta wrote:Tilt, Your conclusion . . .
If you seriously want to deal with this, you need to repost this in the appropriate thread. And I suggest you read the whole thing.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:19 pm

davidbrainerd wrote:Wouldn't a state of mind be born, made, fabricated? Unless it exists now and always has, its not unborn, unmade, unfabricated. A state of mind tapping in to a dimension that has always existed is different from something that is only a state of mind and thus is born, made, created, arisen, conditional, etc. etc.


That would be true if you assume the mind itself is fabricated.

I'd suggest instead that with Awakening (aka realisation of Nibbana) the mind has evolved into it's most natural state and that the cessation that characterises this includes the cessation of fabricated mind states.

There is no need to posit a separate reality to account for the mind returning to it's most natural state.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby davidbrainerd » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:00 pm

Goofaholix wrote:
davidbrainerd wrote:Wouldn't a state of mind be born, made, fabricated? Unless it exists now and always has, its not unborn, unmade, unfabricated. A state of mind tapping in to a dimension that has always existed is different from something that is only a state of mind and thus is born, made, created, arisen, conditional, etc. etc.


That would be true if you assume the mind itself is fabricated.

I'd suggest instead that with Awakening (aka realisation of Nibbana) the mind has evolved into it's most natural state and that the cessation that characterises this includes the cessation of fabricated mind states.

There is no need to posit a separate reality to account for the mind returning to it's most natural state.



If I were new to the forum I would think you were saying the mind is the atta and nibbana is the atta returning to its pure atta-ness devoid of fabrications. Only because we've discussed anatta so many do I know that can't be what you mean despite it sounding like you're saying that.

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Goofaholix
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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:10 pm

davidbrainerd wrote:If I were new to the forum I would think you were saying the mind is the atta and nibbana is the atta returning to its pure atta-ness devoid of fabrications. Only because we've discussed anatta so many do I know that can't be what you mean despite it sounding like you're saying that.


Lucky you're not new to the forum, "the mind" is not a translation of atta. When I refer to the mind I refer to an aggregation of mental processes that is inconstant and subject to conditioning, the way I see it when Nibbana is achieved conditioning is no longer controlling and proliferating those processes.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:17 pm

Goofaholix wrote:
davidbrainerd wrote:If I were new to the forum I would think you were saying the mind is the atta and nibbana is the atta returning to its pure atta-ness devoid of fabrications. Only because we've discussed anatta so many do I know that can't be what you mean despite it sounding like you're saying that.


Lucky you're not new to the forum, "the mind" is not a translation of atta. When I refer to the mind I refer to an aggregation of mental processes that is inconstant and subject to conditioning, the way I see it when Nibbana is achieved conditioning is no longer controlling and proliferating those processes.
"... when Nibbana is achieved conditioning [of greed, hatred, delusion] is no longer controlling and proliferating those processes."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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Goofaholix
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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:20 pm

tiltbillings wrote: "... when Nibbana is achieved conditioning [of greed, hatred, delusion] is no longer controlling and proliferating those processes."


Yes
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby davidbrainerd » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:04 pm

Goofaholix wrote:
davidbrainerd wrote:If I were new to the forum I would think you were saying the mind is the atta and nibbana is the atta returning to its pure atta-ness devoid of fabrications. Only because we've discussed anatta so many do I know that can't be what you mean despite it sounding like you're saying that.


Lucky you're not new to the forum, "the mind" is not a translation of atta. When I refer to the mind I refer to an aggregation of mental processes that is inconstant and subject to conditioning, the way I see it when Nibbana is achieved conditioning is no longer controlling and proliferating those processes.


So why did you say "...if you assume the mind itself is fabricated" as if you don't think it is? Do you see a distinction between conditioned and fabricated?

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Goofaholix
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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:16 pm

davidbrainerd wrote:So why did you say "...if you assume the mind itself is fabricated" as if you don't think it is? Do you see a distinction between conditioned and fabricated?


I would have thought that was quite clear.

fabricated: to make by assembling parts or sections, to devise or invent, or to lie or fake.

conditioned: characterized by a predictable or consistent pattern of behavior or thought as a result of having been subjected to certain circumstances or conditions.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby davidbrainerd » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:44 pm

Goofaholix wrote:
davidbrainerd wrote:So why did you say "...if you assume the mind itself is fabricated" as if you don't think it is? Do you see a distinction between conditioned and fabricated?


I would have thought that was quite clear.

fabricated: to make by assembling parts or sections, to devise or invent, or to lie or fake.

conditioned: characterized by a predictable or consistent pattern of behavior or thought as a result of having been subjected to certain circumstances or conditions.


I think in the suttas conditioned means exactly the same as born, made, fabricated, i.e. something non-eternal, something originated.

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Goofaholix
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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby Goofaholix » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:35 am

davidbrainerd wrote:I think in the suttas conditioned means exactly the same as born, made, fabricated, i.e. something non-eternal, something originated.


It's true that mental formations (sankhara, also called fabrications) are conditioned, I don't think that it follows that the mind as a whole is therefore a fabrication.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

davidbrainerd
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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby davidbrainerd » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:07 am

Goofaholix wrote:
davidbrainerd wrote:I think in the suttas conditioned means exactly the same as born, made, fabricated, i.e. something non-eternal, something originated.


It's true that mental formations (sankhara, also called fabrications) are conditioned, I don't think that it follows that the mind as a whole is therefore a fabrication.


Right. Thinking that mental formations being conditioned means the mind is also conditioned would be like thinking that because milk is a bodily secretion a cow is also a bodily secretion. Its confusing the produced with the producer.

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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby dhammarelax » Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:42 am

Dear Friends

Maybe AN 9.34.3 can help:

https://suttacentral.net/en/an9.34

"I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels’ Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, “This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant.”"...

And AN 9.47 Directly Visible

It is said, friend directly visible Nibbana,, in what way? Here friend secluded from sensual pleasures a bhikku enters in the first jhana, to this extent the Blessedc One has spoken of directlly visible nibbana in a provisional sense...


smile
dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby suttametta » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:59 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
suttametta wrote:Tilt, Your conclusion . . .
If you seriously want to deal with this, you need to repost this in the appropriate thread. And I suggest you read the whole thing.


The current thread is most appropriate. But I humored you.

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Re: Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:39 pm

dhammarelax wrote:Dear Friends

Maybe AN 9.34.3 can help:

https://suttacentral.net/en/an9.34

"I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels’ Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, “This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant.”"...

And AN 9.47 Directly Visible

It is said, friend directly visible Nibbana,, in what way? Here friend secluded from sensual pleasures a bhikku enters in the first jhana, to this extent the Blessedc One has spoken of directlly visible nibbana in a provisional sense...


smile
dhammarelax
These are rather interesting texts. You should quote them at a bit more length, and then tell us what you think they are saying.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12


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