the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Seymour
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Seymour »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:23 pm
a poor choice of words or a bad translation.
Why can't you accept the choice of words?

You need faith to accept.
Let the games began!

I wasn't painstakingly clear and I meant no offense. Actually besides that one sentence the rest of my post was written in the spirit of support. I only meant if you find yourself confused about those particular words because of the reasons Dhammanando pointed out that there are other ways of expression, even within that tradition, that are similar and possibly fit better with other teachings of the Buddha. I fully accept that people have different ideas, some people like to eat pizza with tomato ketchup, but trying to clarify a meaning especially on a forum designed for that reason doesn't really equate to non-acceptance. I suppose instead of using the words I did I could have said this. It appears I had my own poor choice of words. Why couldn't you accept them?
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Seymour
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Seymour »

Seymour wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:08 am some people like to eat pizza with tomato ketchup.
Really! In Thailand if your order a pizza they are very likely to give you a bottle ketchup of to go with it. I guess a large number of Thais eat it this way. This is a harsh reality to accept!

If you can't tell yet, I believe in a healthy dose of sacsaim.
It is possible that if I don't get better at expressing it in my writing I will end up apologizing more often than not.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Amanaki »

I my understanding of nibbana/nirvana it is not a place it is an state of enlightenment it is like blowing out all that has been.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:23 pm You need faith to accept.
If that were the case, I'd still be a Roman Catholic. :tongue:

"Bless me father, for I have sinned, it has been 45 years since my last confession and we are going to be here a long time...." :toilet:
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Zom »

1)"The Buddha refers to Nibbana as a 'dhamma'. For example, he says "of all dhammas, conditioned or unconditioned, the most excellent dhamma, the supreme dhamma is, Nibbana".
"dhamma" is not necessarily a "thing", but can be just a concept. For example, Buddha did say that the best conditioned dhamma is Noble Eightfold Path. Like there is no Noble Eightfold Path flying around in the space, there is no such "nibbana dhamma", somewhere "out there" .)
3)"The Buddha refers to Nibbana as
-a 'dhatu,' an element, the 'deathless element' (amata-dhatu).
-a 'state' (pada), as 'amatapada' - the deathless state - or ‘accutapada’, the imperishable state.
-something that can be experienced by the body "touching the deathless element with one's own body."
-As an 'ayatana'. This means realm, plane or sphere"
1) dhatu not necessarily "a thing" as well. For example, there is nekkhama-dhātu - element of renunciation, which is well, just a renunciation. Again, a concept, or the process at best.

2) state doesn't mean that there something must exist as a thing. State can be a just a sitation. In case of nibbana - situation of non-existence. Or, this can mean nibbana with a residue, which is simply the mind of arahant without greed, hatred, and delusion.

3) touching with the body - is ancient pali idiom, which just means "to realize".

4) ayatana is not "a realm", but more a sphere in figurative sense (ayatana of one's skills and abilities); for example, there is "ear ayatana" and "sounds ayatana", which doesn't mean there are "two realms" or "two worlds" or "two places" or smth like that. In this sense "nibbana ayatana" is again just a situation where there are no other ayatanas like ear and sounds, eye and forms, mind and mental object - a situation when everything simply ceases, stops to exists.

8-)
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

Dinsdale wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:58 am
cappuccino wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:23 pm You need faith to accept.
If that were the case, I'd still be a Roman Catholic.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el065.html

Spiritual progress depends on the emergence of five cardinal virtues — faith, vigor, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

Some lack faith… so cannot accept Nirvana

And yes, it's something to touch
Seymour
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Seymour »

All of the above quotes being from Bhikkhu Bodhi It would be difficult for me to want to add or takeaway form anything he has written. After all, his study and translation from Suttapitaka and Abhidhammapitaka... Scrupulous :bow: I suppse I could try, but don't take my word for it.
Zom wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:22 pm

"dhamma" is not necessarily a "thing", but can be just a concept. For example, Buddha did say that the best conditioned dhamma is Noble Eightfold Path. Like there is no Noble Eightfold Path flying around in the space, there is no such "nibbana dhamma", somewhere "out there" .)
Possibly he had a slightly different idea in mind when he used the terms "conceptual thing" & "actual realities"
My guess is that an "actual reality" can manifest within yourself ( within your mind) and does not have the meaning of merely physical material existence. With this understanding an arisen mental state such as anger or ,like you pointed out, renunciation would qualify as an "actual reality". This as opposed to a "conceptual thing" such as a daydream or fantasy of some kind constructed in the mind with past memories and/or ideas like, for example, what Nibbana is like. Even the concepts themselves that have arisen in the mind could be regarded as "actual" but their content "not reality" But then of course any mental state that arises because of such fantasy would then qualify as an actual existing thing. Now that i think about it, the term Dhamma in this sense covers everything and this would have to include concepts. To sumerize, I think in order to distinguish between a right understanding and complete fantasy some conventional language is needed. Maybe this will clear up most of the other points in your post. Again anyone please do clarify or correct.

Also, I would be surprised if, when talking about the best conditioned thing, The Buddha was referring to a concept of his Noble Eightfold Path and not the actual practicing of it. All that aside, the main point of the post was to illustrate the freedom of expression used when taking about something so elusive to understanding, something that I would never dream of trying to sum up within the box of this forum, nor elsewhere.

Zom wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:22 pm
2) state doesn't mean that there something must exist as a thing. State can be a just a sitation. In case of nibbana - situation of non-existence. Or, this can mean nibbana with a residue, which is simply the mind of arahant without greed, hatred, and delusion.

8-)
I see that there are different ideas about what Nibbana is / is not and about aspects of Nibbana in particular, like this one.

Here on the forum.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25336&p=364997&hil ... of#p364997

And within the link to Ven. Bodhi' s Writings of which my initial post was based.
https://www.dhammaforeveryone.com/nibba ... bodhi.html

"Nibbana is not only the destruction of defilements and the end of samsara but a reality transcendent to the entire world of mundane experience, a reality transcendent to all the realms of phenomenal existence."


Starting to question the benefits of continuing.

W/ Metta.
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Zom
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Zom »

All that aside, the main point of the post was to illustrate the freedom of expression used when taking about something so elusive to understanding, something that I would never dream of trying to sum up within the box of this forum, nor elsewhere.
"Nibbana is not only the destruction of defilements and the end of samsara but a reality transcendent to the entire world of mundane experience, a reality transcendent to all the realms of phenomenal existence."
While the main point of my post was to show that nibbana actually can be only a destruction of defilements and not a (rather useless, btw) transcendent reality .) Australian camp would agree 8-)
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

Zom wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:35 pma rather useless transcendent reality
Buddhism isn't fancy atheism

Buddhism is a religion that requires faith

without faith you don't possess understanding
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by chownah »

with faith in the wrong thing you don't possess understanding
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

chownah wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:59 pmwith faith in the wrong thing you don't possess understanding

yes I know
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Seymour »

Zom wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:35 pm

BHIKKHU BODHI - "Nibbana is not only the destruction of defilements and the end of samsara but a reality transcendent to the entire world of mundane experience, a reality transcendent to all the realms of phenomenal existence."
ZOM- While the main point of my post was to show that nibbana actually can be only a destruction of defilements and not a (rather useless, btw) transcendent reality .) Australian camp would agree 8-)
I might suggest just a tad bit of humility (just a suggestion) but I'm glad you had a chance to stick it to me so good and that your bros will have your back.
SEYMOUR- I'm starting to question the benefits of continuing
I Thank you for making that extra clear.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:51 pm Buddhism isn't fancy atheism
Nor is it pseudo-theism, or grasping at comforting views and beliefs.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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