Hello.
I've been intrigued for a long time as to why the Buddha teached the formless jhanas. They are not included in the right concentration classification. Plus, they lead to rebirth in states of ignorance. But I found a sutta I'd like to discuss. It can be found here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The crucial passage is: "Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, without a sequel."
This seems to be the purpose of teaching the formless jhanas. They lead, step by step, to the attainment of nirodha samapatti. And then, when this state is seen with discernment, it leads to Nibbana.
So what is the relation between nirodha samapatti and nibbana? Or, in a different manner, what is it about nirodha samapatti that is important to realise nibbana?
the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread
- Modus.Ponens
- Posts: 3854
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
- Location: Gallifrey
Cessation of perception and feeling and Nibbana
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Re: Cessation of perception and feeling and Nibbana
Possibly nothing.Modus.Ponens wrote:Or, in a different manner, what is it about nirodha samapatti that is important to realise nibbana?
First jhana is enough, for some, and the other rupajhanas are together themselves sufficient; the formless attainments are more likely to be extant brahmanical methods current at that time, which is why Alara and Uddaka could teach those - no one was teaching the rupajhanas before the Buddha introduced them (possibly even having first discovered them under the rose-apple tree as a youth).
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
- Modus.Ponens
- Posts: 3854
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
- Location: Gallifrey
Re: Cessation of perception and feeling and Nibbana
I think you missed the point. There are various ways to realise nibbana, such as the samadhi focusing on anicca, the samadhi focusing on dukha and the samadhi focusing on anatta. This sutta indicates another way to realise it. What I'm asking is what is the process through which nibbana is realised by seeing with discernment the cessation of perception and feeling. I'm asking about this process in particular.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Re: Cessation of perception and feeling and Nibbana
Hi ModusModus.Ponens wrote:I think you missed the point. There are various ways to realise nibbana, such as the samadhi focusing on anicca, the samadhi focusing on dukha and the samadhi focusing on anatta. This sutta indicates another way to realise it. What I'm asking is what is the process through which nibbana is realised by seeing with discernment the cessation of perception and feeling. I'm asking about this process in particular.
To help answer the question more accurately, why do you think the cessation of perception and feeling is not a samadhi focusing on anatta or dukkha?
metta
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86
-
- Posts: 194
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm
Re: Cessation of perception and feeling and Nibbana
The other day a thought came to me about just this question. I think it may be something similar to near death experiences - perhaps nirodha samapatti and what happens then shows the mind that there is nothing to fear, thus nothing i.e. self, to protect.
But then, work needs to be done on actualising this in daily life, hence the attainment is not the end of the path.
But then, work needs to be done on actualising this in daily life, hence the attainment is not the end of the path.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.
the wheel is turning.
- Modus.Ponens
- Posts: 3854
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
- Location: Gallifrey
Re: Cessation of perception and feeling and Nibbana
Because those who attain it say it's a cessation of experience. A samadhi focused on one of the three characteristics is an experience.Sarva wrote: Hi Modus
To help answer the question more accurately, why do you think the cessation of perception and feeling is not a samadhi focusing on anatta or dukkha?
metta
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Re: Cessation of perception and feeling and Nibbana
When one emerges from the cessation attainment the mind contacts either signlessness, undirectedness, or emptiness (just as with the contemplation of impermanence, etc.), and inclines towards nibbāna. MN 44:Modus.Ponens wrote:I think you missed the point. There are various ways to realise nibbana, such as the samadhi focusing on anicca, the samadhi focusing on dukha and the samadhi focusing on anatta. This sutta indicates another way to realise it. What I'm asking is what is the process through which nibbana is realised by seeing with discernment the cessation of perception and feeling. I'm asking about this process in particular.
- "When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, how many contacts make contact?"
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected."
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, to what does his mind lean, to what does it tend, to what does it incline?"
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion."
- Towards what does the mind of one who has emerged tend? It tends towards nibbana. For this is said: 'When a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, friend Visakha, his consciousness inclines to seclusion, leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion' (M.i,302).
-
- Posts: 1952
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
- Location: London, UK
Re: Cessation of perception and feeling and Nibbana
Nirodha samapatti is not essential to realise nibbana.
The non-returner has removed five of the lower fetters to samsara and therefore is able to access nirodha samapatti (no others apart from arahanths who posses the 8th jhana can enter into it). It is therefore unlikely if not impossible that insight into anicca dukkha anatta is absent (more likely to be particularly strong) in these individuals.
This sutta may help
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The three doors to nibbana maybe connected but I'm not sure.
With metta
Matheesha
The non-returner has removed five of the lower fetters to samsara and therefore is able to access nirodha samapatti (no others apart from arahanths who posses the 8th jhana can enter into it). It is therefore unlikely if not impossible that insight into anicca dukkha anatta is absent (more likely to be particularly strong) in these individuals.
This sutta may help
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The three doors to nibbana maybe connected but I'm not sure.
With metta
Matheesha
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
- Modus.Ponens
- Posts: 3854
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
- Location: Gallifrey
Re: Cessation of perception and feeling and Nibbana
Thanks Nana.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Nibbana = universal consciousness?
I've already pointed out to you where you are mistaken on a number of issues. Malcolm has patiently done so with regard to many issues. Yet you persist with your wild interpretations of the Budhadhamma.suttametta wrote:Again, we can go into these issues if you like.
Given your penchant for reading Vedic views into the dhamma there's probably very little point in trying to clarify this issue. But here are a couple of contemporary Theravāda authors who refute your ideas about consciousness and nibbāna:suttametta wrote:Whereas, the Pali teachings about sati are uniquely different as to methodology, although not as different as one might think as to result, given the Buddha's statements about nibbana being an eternal radiant consciousness.
Nibbana is not Viññāṇa. Really, it just isn’t by Ven Sujato.
The Mind Stilled: 33 Sermons on Nibbāna by Ven. Ñāṇananda.
I reject your interpretation and understanding of the Theravāda and the Mahāyāna. It's really that simple.suttametta wrote:You are impugning my knowledge.
-
- Posts: 289
- Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 2:55 pm
Nibbana = universal consciousness?
I do thank you for your kind input. I beg to differ. I hardly see why I should acquiesce under the circumstances you mention. I have patiently pointed out the faults in the reasoning belonging to both you and Malcolm. I am under no obligation to cede to your authorities.Ñāṇa wrote:I've already pointed out to you where you where you are mistaken on a number of issues. Malcolm has patiently done so with regard to many issues. Yet you persist with your wild interpretations of the Budhadhamma.suttametta wrote:Again, we can go into these issues if you like.
Curious title given the statements in the suttas.Ñāṇa wrote:Given your penchant for reading Vedic views into the dhamma there's probably very little point in trying to clarify this issue. But here are a couple of contemporary Theravāda authors who refute your ideas about consciousness and nibbāna:suttametta wrote:Whereas, the Pali teachings about sati are uniquely different as to methodology, although not as different as one might think as to result, given the Buddha's statements about nibbana being an eternal radiant consciousness.
Nibbana is not Viññāṇa. Really, it just isn’t by Ven Sujato.
Obviously not all bhikkus agree.Ñāṇa wrote:The Mind Stilled: 33 Sermons on Nibbāna by Ven. Ñāṇananda.
It's good to clear the air. I don't know why you feel the need to make this statement. It's rather self-serving.Ñāṇa wrote:I reject your interpretation and understanding of the Theravāda and the Mahāyāna. It's really that simple.suttametta wrote:You are impugning my knowledge.
Nibbana = universal consciousness?
And you are entitled to conceive in, from, through, and around nibbana by considering the arahant to be identifiable with a permanent vinnana lighting the cosmos.suttametta wrote:You are entitled to your opinion.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
- DNS
- Site Admin
- Posts: 17232
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
- Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
- Contact:
Nibbana = universal consciousness?
Ven. Punnaji would not agree with this view.suttametta wrote: The absence of all things dukkha reveals the "pabham" shining vinnana of nibbana.
I think the only place you will find that is on one of the websites some of his Chinese-Malaysian students have made; which they are just trying to convey a permanent nibbana, not a place or existence.Punnaji also calls it "immortality."
Nibbana = universal consciousness?
I'm not familiar with that work, but by sheer coincidence I just happened to run across Bhikkhu Bodhi's reference to it, in note 314 to SN 4.23.suttametta wrote:Malcolm turned me on to Peter Harvey's "The Selfless Mind." It is an excellent treatment of just these issues.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: When the monk is said to attain final Nibbana with consciousness unestablished, this should not be understood to mean that after death consciousness survives in an "unestablished" condition (a thesis argued by Harvey, The Selfless Mind, pp. 208-210); for enough texts make it plain that with the passing away of the arahant consciousness too ceases and no longer exists (see, e.g., 12:51).
SN 12.51 wrote: "When there is utterly no consciousness, with the cessation of consciousness, would name-and-form be discerned?"
"No, venerable sir."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Nibbana = universal consciousness?
They can call us hinayana or bananayana or whatever they darn well like, it doesn't make a jot of difference and we are not supposed to get upset about it. And the same goes for the other camp. There was a sutta, can't recall the name, where the Buddha instructed that 'if people speak badly of you, to then get upset over it would be a hindrance for you', or words to that effect. We are supposed to just say, "This is how we practice here. That is how they practice there." Or words to that effect.mfesmith wrote:Considering all the hand-wringing and angst that goes on over the term "hīnayāna" on Dharmawheel, I was suprised to see a great deal of unfettered sectarian remarks concerning Mahāyāna Buddhism and so on over here.
...
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.