the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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cappuccino
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:22 pm

So I very deeply understand, why the musician has very wrong view.
Why is music very wrong view?

(Acting is one thing, music is another.)

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by theY » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:34 pm

cappuccino wrote:
So I very deeply understand, why the musician has very wrong view.
Why is music very wrong view?

Because they enjoy the being living (suffering) as alike as patienter enjoy to drug, but healing. This case can compare to you who enjoy to have realm of happiness (suffering), but suffering leaving.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by DNS » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:55 am

theY wrote:I love to sing. It is one of my most important hindrance, that make me leaved monk hood. So I very deeply understand, why the musician has very wrong view.
A musician could have right view and just not be an anagami or arahant yet, he or she could just still be in lay life and have no requirement or will to give up those pleasures or livelihood yet. Everyone has their vices, if it's not music, it might be movies, shows, other entertainment, other arts, sports, fine dining, etc.; unless they are an anagami or arahant where those cravings have naturally ended.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by theY » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:07 am

I'm sorry. It is my mistake reading. My quote is out of topic, now. I am sorry.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:14 am

aflatun wrote:The more universal view, in so far as I can tell, not just in Theravada but also in non Theravada "hinayana" systems (minus Sautrantika again, supposedly), is that Nibbana is an unconditioned existent dhamma (or at least something closer to that).
So do you think of Nibbana as a transcendent reality which we "connect" with in some sense?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:14 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
aflatun wrote:The more universal view, in so far as I can tell, not just in Theravada but also in non Theravada "hinayana" systems (minus Sautrantika again, supposedly), is that Nibbana is an unconditioned existent dhamma (or at least something closer to that).
So do you think of Nibbana as a transcendent reality which we "connect" with in some sense?
Does unconditioned existent dhamma necessarily mean transcendent reality we connect with in some sense?
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by theY » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:25 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
aflatun wrote:The more universal view, in so far as I can tell, not just in Theravada but also in non Theravada "hinayana" systems (minus Sautrantika again, supposedly), is that Nibbana is an unconditioned existent dhamma (or at least something closer to that).
So do you think of Nibbana as a transcendent reality which we "connect" with in some sense?
Does unconditioned existent dhamma necessarily mean transcendent reality we connect with in some sense?
Nibbāna has no cause, because nibbāna never arise (everything arisen by causes). Nibbāna is reality, existent, because nibbāna is the end of suffering (5 aggregates), the opposite side of suffering. But paññatti is not reality, not existent, although we can know it. Because paññatti has not any cause, too. And mainly, it is neither included in aggregate existent, nor included in nibbāna existent.

This is the difference between aggregate existent, nibbāna existent, and nonexistent (paññatti).

This reply may look like general sutta that described about nibbāna, because this topic is the deepest topic in buddhism. So it is very hard to describe.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by aflatun » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:05 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
aflatun wrote:The more universal view, in so far as I can tell, not just in Theravada but also in non Theravada "hinayana" systems (minus Sautrantika again, supposedly), is that Nibbana is an unconditioned existent dhamma (or at least something closer to that).
So do you think of Nibbana as a transcendent reality which we "connect" with in some sense?
No, or at least I try not to. But I think its probably better to approach it this way then the "other extreme."
Coëmgenu wrote: Does unconditioned existent dhamma necessarily mean transcendent reality we connect with in some sense?
Probably not, since presumably "we" and "connect" is what obscured "it" in the first place :sage:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:04 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:So do you think of Nibbana as a transcendent reality which we "connect" with in some sense?
If you blow out a fire,
has reality itself disappeared with the fire?

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:33 am

aflatun wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
aflatun wrote:The more universal view, in so far as I can tell, not just in Theravada but also in non Theravada "hinayana" systems (minus Sautrantika again, supposedly), is that Nibbana is an unconditioned existent dhamma (or at least something closer to that).
So do you think of Nibbana as a transcendent reality which we "connect" with in some sense?
No, or at least I try not to. But I think its probably better to approach it this way then the "other extreme."
By "other extreme", do you mean the view that Nibbana is just a different state of mind?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:35 am

cappuccino wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:So do you think of Nibbana as a transcendent reality which we "connect" with in some sense?
If you blow out a fire,
has reality itself disappeared with the fire?
I don't know. ;)
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:11 pm

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ire/1.html

'All this, no longer being relished, grows cold right here.'

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by DNS » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:59 am

cappuccino wrote:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ire/1.html

'All this, no longer being relished, grows cold right here.'
From that link, the rest of that paragraph:
All attempts to describe the experience of nibbāna or the state of the Tathāgata after death — as existing, not existing, both, or neither — are refuted by the Buddha. To explain his point, he again makes use of the metaphor of the extinguished fire, although here he draws on the Vedic view of latent fire as modified by Buddhist notions of what does and does not lie within the realm of valid description.
And then Ven. Thanissaro continues:
The Buddha borrows two points from the Vedic notion of fire to illustrate this point. Even if one wants to assume that fire still exists after being extinguished, it is (1) so subtle that it cannot be perceived, and (2) so diffuse that it cannot be said to go to any one place or in any particular direction. Just as notions of going east, west, north, or south do not apply to an extinguished fire, notions of existing and so forth do not apply to the Tathāgata after death.

As for the question of how nibbāna is experienced after death, the Buddha says that there is no limit in that experience by which it could be described. The word 'limit' here is the important one. In one of the ancient Vedic myths of creation, the universe starts when a limit appears that separates male from female, sky from earth. Thus the implication of the Buddha's statement is that the experience of nibbāna is so free from even the most basic notions making up the universe that it lies beyond description. This implication is borne out by other passages stating that there is nothing in that experience of the known universe — earth, water, wind, fire, sun, moon, darkness, coming, going, or stasis — at all.

Thus, when viewed in light of the way the Pali Canon describes the workings of fire and uses fire imagery to describe the workings of the mind, it is clear that the word nibbāna is primarily meant to convey notions of freedom: freedom in the present life from agitation, dependency, & clinging; and freedom after death from even the most basic concepts or limitations — such as existence, non-existence, both, or neither — that make up the describable universe.
And so if we consider Thanissaro's views seriously, then we are right back in the middle of the controversy of trying to figure out what is the correct position, the Theravada position, etc.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Garrib » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:06 am

:goodpost:

The Buddha used both "positive" and "negative" language to describe Nibbana, while (IMO) also making it quite clear that Nibbana is beyond linguistic and conceptual categorization. There must be some reason for this.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:17 pm

One should think in terms of not self.
Rather than no self.

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Re: Nirvana is a Transcendent Reality

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:58 am

Coëmgenu wrote:In relation to the Tiāntāi Interpenetrationality discourse mentioned above:

Consider the Three Perspectives/Truths (Tiāntāi hermeneutical framework), a "triarchy" of verisimilitude:

i: all dharmāḥ are śūnya (empty)
ii: myriad dharmāḥ
iii: dharma śūnyata & myriad dharmāḥ [at once without contradiction, despite apparent contradiction]

We can also understand this as

i: Dharmakāya as empty [or "non-characterized"]
ii: Saṃsāra as distinct [or "characterized by X"]
iii: Dharmakāya as empty [or "non-characterized"] & Saṃsāra as distinct [or "characterized by X"] both-together as mutually identical

This is how "interpenetration" functions in a Tiāntāi context. The Huáyán teach a similar dharma that contains only the 3rd principle in each of the triachies.
This, it turns out, was not quite correct.

The Huáyán explain interpenetration via the Four Dharmadhātavaḥ, apparently, from wikipedia:
The Dharmadhātu of Shì (Chinese: 事法界; "shì fǎ jiè"). Shì is a rendering of the character 事 which holds the semantic field: "matter", "phenomenon", "event". It may be understood as the 'realm' (Sanskrit: dhātu) of all matters and phenomena.

The Dharmadhātu of Lǐ (Chinese: 理法界; "lǐ fǎ jiè"). 'Li' is a rendering of the character 理 which holds the semantic field: "principle", "law", "noumenon". This 'realm' (Sanskrit: dhātu) may be understood as that of principles. It has been referred to as "the realm of the one principle". The "one principle" being qualified as śūnyatā (Sanskrit).

The Dharmadhātu of Non-obstruction of Lǐ against Shì (Chinese: 理事無礙法界; "lǐ shì wú'ài fǎ jiè"). This 'realm' (Sanskrit: dhātu) has been rendered into English as "the realm of non-obstruction between principle and phenomena".

The Dharmadhātu of the Non-obstruction of Shì and Shì (Chinese: 事事無礙法界; "shì shì wú'ài fǎ jiè"). This 'realm' (Sanskrit: dhātu) has been rendered into English as "the realm of non-obstruction between phenomena".
I figured I might as well correct myself. Looks like I have more reading to do before I decide I know about a different sect's teachings!
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Unexist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:59 am

Tathagata is synonym for the stream of purity , the eightfold path who is the the healer. Buddha many times mentioned him as unfathomable, sea of compassion and mercy. Buddha is naming it as third person. Like Jesus openly says as Father.

Many times we see who see this house builder after losing his identity, uses second name instead of real name. Understand he is referring to the truth of mercy.

By mere using second name, nor by wearing colored robes, nor by meditation, nor by begging, nor by yoga, nor by Veda, upanishada, nor by praying to Buddha, nor by attending rituals, nor by goint in forest, nor by going to Temple or sacred placed, nor by complete annhilation of desires one can liberate oneself.

But who, walking along the path of purity and conduct, faith in the heart and love for wisdom is able to do it.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:37 am

cappuccino wrote:One should think in terms of not self.
Rather than no self.
What about "sabbe dhamma anatta"? That seems pretty clear.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:58 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
cappuccino wrote:One should think in terms of not self.
Rather than no self.
What about "sabbe dhamma anatta"? That seems pretty clear.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Ananda Sutta: To Ananda
(On Self, No Self, and Not-self)

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Garrib » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:30 pm

Cappuccino: Are you saying that it is best to think in terms of "not-self" because that can actually be investigated - you look at whatever arises and you can see, oh that isn't self, that isn't self etc....it is practical and systematic, and doesn't require you to all at once overcome your belief in some kind of a self, which for most beings would be impossible. Thinking in terms of "no-self" can be problematic, not because there really is a self, but because people cling to some kind of sense of self whether gross or subtle, and they can become bewildered when someone tells them "your self isn't real" or whatever. It feels like someone is trying to destroy them psychologically or something. Better to ease into things this deep...

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