the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by SarathW »

It's unreasonable to practice anything without knowing the final fruit.
Agree.
But if you become a Sotapanna then you can have a taste of Nibbana.
It is gradual training.
You take the second step once you have completed the first step.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Mkoll
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Mkoll »

Akhandha wrote:It's unreasonable to practice anything without knowing the final fruit.
I'm not so sure about that. To use some analogies...

Practicing a sport you love with the hope of playing professionally—is there any guarantee that will be your fruit? Do you know what it will be like to actually play professionally?

Going to school to study for a future job you want—is there any guarantee you'll get it? Is there any guarantee it'll be like you think it will be? Might you end up not liking it?

Planting and taking care of crops in the hope that they will yield fruit—do you know what you're going to get? Might your crops be destroyed by disease, pests, or the weather?

When an explorer goes off to uncharted territories, they don't know what they'll find, they don't know the final fruit of that journey, but they do it anyway. Will they come back with stories of adventure and become famous or will they perish in a jungle, far away from home?

All of it is uncertain. We may not know the final fruit of developing something, but we do it anyway because it's necessary or we enjoy it or for some other reason. We have to make up our own reasons for doing things or we wouldn't do anything at all...

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
SarathW
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by SarathW »

It seems Akhanda's problem is s/he is not sure of what Nibbna means and what happens when you attain Nibbna.

I think s/he should be reading the following Sutta.

Safe bet.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Zom
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Zom »

Nibbana is the ending of greed, hatred, delusion. Enough for practice ,)
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Akhandha
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Akhandha »

Zom wrote:Nibbana is the ending of greed, hatred, delusion. Enough for practice ,)
It's also the end of love, happiness and desire to exist. And nothing clear about consciousness.
It's like a computer which was turned off... Zero point.

Doubtful pleasure for me)
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Mkoll
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Mkoll »

Might be worth thinking about...
SN 35.91 wrote:“Bhikkhus, being stirred is a disease, being stirred is a tumour, being stirred is a dart. Therefore, bhikkhus, the Tathagata dwells unstirred, with the dart removed. Therefore, bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu should wish, ‘May I dwell unstirred, with the dart removed!’ he should not conceive the eye … forms … eye-consciousness … eye-contact … and as to whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition … he should not conceive that, should not conceive in that, should not conceive from that, should not conceive, ‘That is mine.’ For whatever one conceives, bhikkhus, whatever one conceives in, whatever one conceives from, whatever one conceives as ‘mine’—that is otherwise. The world, becoming otherwise, attached to existence, seeks delight only in existence.

“He should not conceive the ear … He should not conceive the mind … mental phenomena … mind-consciousness … mind-contact … and as to whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition … he should not conceive that, should not conceive in that, should not conceive from that, should not conceive, ‘That is mine.’ For whatever one conceives, bhikkhus, whatever one conceives in, whatever one conceives from, whatever one conceives as ‘mine’—that is otherwise. The world, becoming otherwise, attached to existence, seeks delight only in existence.

“Whatever, bhikkhus, is the extent of the aggregates, the elements, and the sense bases, he does not conceive that, does not conceive in that, does not conceive from that, does not conceive, ‘That is mine.’

“Since he does not conceive anything thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’”
:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Akhandha
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Akhandha »

Mkoll wrote: Not clinging, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’”

What's good in non-existence?... never_doing_nothing.... oh, so boring))
Maybe, this total peace is good after a long suffering. For some time. But not for ever.

As for conscience without "myself" - I'm acquainted with these states. I like them very much. It's real bliss. In these states there is no emotions, no thinking, only oceanic awareness. What I'm not ready to give up - is conscience. Awareness.
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Mkoll
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Mkoll »

Akhandha wrote:What's good in non-existence?... never_doing_nothing.... oh, so boring))
Maybe, this total peace is good after a long suffering. For some time. But not for ever.
The view that Nibbana = non-existence is just that: a view. Part of the cultivation of wisdom is developing the understanding of views.
AN 10.96 wrote:[Venerable Ananda:]"'The cosmos is eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless,' is a viewpoint. 'The cosmos is not eternal... The cosmos is finite... The cosmos is infinite... The soul & the body are the same... The soul is one thing and the body another... After death a Tathagata exists... After death a Tathagata does not exist... After death a Tathagata both does & does not exist... After death a Tathagata neither does nor does not exist. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless,' is a viewpoint. The extent to which there are viewpoints, view-stances, the taking up of views, obsessions of views, the cause of views, & the uprooting of views: that's what I know. That's what I see. Knowing that, I say 'I know.' Seeing that, I say 'I see.' Why should I say 'I don't know, I don't see'? I do know. I do see."
As for conscience without "myself" - I'm acquainted with these states. I like them very much. It's real bliss. In these states there is no emotions, no thinking, only oceanic awareness. What I'm not ready to give up - is conscience. Awareness.
It sounds like you like you have cultivated calm quite a bit. I'd suggest you cultivate insight more. For example, the perception of impermanence is a great practice and is one the Buddha recommended to householders.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Akhandha
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Akhandha »

the perception of impermanence is a great practice
forms of energy change all the time, but the energy itself never disappears.
there is deep calm underneath everything that moves and changes. this calm never changes. an ever clear awareness.
I understand well what Dzogchen and Mahayana are talking about. And I can't understand the Theravada buddism to the end because of these ideas that awareness (consciousness) is to be given up. I simply don't understand WHAT remains.
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Zom
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Zom »

It's also the end of love, happiness and desire to exist.
As long as there is greed, there is greed for love,greed for happiness, and desire to exist -)
One day you'll realize, that things based on greed are not satisfactory in their very nature. One day...
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Exactly »

What's good in non-existence?... never_doing_nothing.... oh, so boring))
Maybe, this total peace is good after a long suffering. For some time. But not for ever.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"
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Nicolas
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Nicolas »

Exactly wrote:[...]
:goodpost:
Nibbānasukha Sutta (AN 9.34) wrote:Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
Akhandha wrote:Doubtful pleasure for me)
Bahuvedanīya Sutta (MN 59) wrote:It is possible, Ananda, that wanderers of other sects might speak thus: 'The recluse Gotama speaks of the cessation of perception and feeling and he describes that as pleasure. What is this, and how is this?' Wanderers of other sects who speak thus should be told: 'Friends, the Blessed One describes pleasure not only with reference to pleasant feeling; rather, friends, the Tathagata describes as pleasure any kind of pleasure wherever and in whatever way it is found.'
Akhandha wrote:What's good in non-existence?... never_doing_nothing.... oh, so boring))
Maybe, this total peace is good after a long suffering. For some time. But not for ever.
Only boring if there is a being to crave existence and doing.
AN 1.328-332 wrote:Bhikkhus, just as even a trifling amount of feces/urine/saliva/pus/blood is foul-smelling, so too I do not praise even a trifling amount of existence, even for a mere finger snap.
+ First Noble Truth + Anicca + Dukkha + Anatta.
There is dukkha inherent in being. The lack of dukkha in non-being is preferable to any kind of being.
SarathW
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by SarathW »

What's good in non-existence?...
Buddha rejected both existence and non-existence and taught dependent origination.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Mkoll
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Mkoll »

Akhandha wrote:
the perception of impermanence is a great practice
forms of energy change all the time, but the energy itself never disappears.
there is deep calm underneath everything that moves and changes. this calm never changes. an ever clear awareness.
So you believe you have found something permanent in your experience?
Akhandha wrote:I understand well what Dzogchen and Mahayana are talking about. And I can't understand the Theravada buddism to the end because of these ideas that awareness (consciousness) is to be given up. I simply don't understand WHAT remains.
Have you visited Dharma Wheel and tried sharing your views there? You may be surprised, AFAIK.

I feel like this must be said: you seem very confident of your views and attainments, yet still have questions and doubts about them. There is a contradiction there. That is worthy of investigating.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Caodemarte
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nibbana?

Post by Caodemarte »

Akhandha wrote:
the perception of impermanence is a great practice
forms of energy change all the time, but the energy itself never disappears.
there is deep calm underneath everything that moves and changes. this calm never changes. an ever clear awareness.
I understand well what Dzogchen and Mahayana are talking about. And I can't understand the Theravada buddism to the end because of these ideas that awareness (consciousness) is to be given up. I simply don't understand WHAT remains.
As I understand consciousness is not to be given up in Nibbana in any of the forms of Buddhism you mention. Attachment is. Clinging to concepts such as "consciousness", awareness," "energy," " I am," or even "giving up" is. So if yoo feeling bliss, are aware or unaware in meditation there is still far to go. Or so I have been told by Mahayanists and Theravadins.

Nibbana or enlightenment (or reality itself) cannot be described with limited words so asking questions about it will not get any good answers. So get enlightened, go to Nibbana, answer your question and come tell us!

Many Buddhist meditation manuals warn against the mistake of confusing unconsciousness with meditation. Being zoned out or dead to the world is not useful. Otherwise the sleeping or the dead would be model Buddhists in Nibbana!
Last edited by Caodemarte on Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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