the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Spiny Norman » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:28 am

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:37 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:20 am
Same thing. If the world is empty of a self, then there is no self in the world.
The difference is subtle.
You fail to appreciate the difference.
There is no practical difference.

The Sunna Sutta says the world is empty of a self or anything pertaining to the world. So are you proposing a self outside the world? If so, some sutta support for this view would be useful.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:03 pm

Again the difference is subtle.
And the difference must be appreciated.
Dhamma is karma & rebirth.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Spiny Norman » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:13 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:03 pm
Again the difference is subtle.
And the difference must be appreciated.
If you really think there is a practical difference, then explain it clearly what it is.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:19 pm

Dhamma is karma & rebirth.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Spiny Norman » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:23 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:19 pm
On Self, No Self, and Not-self
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
You are avoiding a straightforward question ( again ).

The Sunna Sutta says: "the world is empty of a self, or anything pertaining to a self". What is the practical difference between that and "there is no self in the world"?

If you are proposing a self outside the world, then lets see some sutta passages which specifically support that view.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:26 pm

If Buddha cannot help you, I cannot.
Dhamma is karma & rebirth.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Spiny Norman » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:28 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:26 pm
If Buddha cannot help you, I cannot.
:shrug:
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:30 pm

There are three views. Self, no self, not-self.

Among those three, self and no self are extreme views.

Not-self is a middle view, between the extremes.
Dhamma is karma & rebirth.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by chownah » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:26 pm

The difference between saying there is no self and saying that everything I think of is not self is that it is possible for you to observe what you think of and determine that it is not self....your range of what you think of only includes the things you think of and it does not include the things which you do not think of. The things you do not think of are things which are out of range so it is not possible for you to determine if they are self or not.

IN summary: determening that there is no self is beyond range....determeing that you can not think of something which is self is within range since you can simply just sit and think of things and verify that you can not think of something which is self.

Not very artfully expressed and probably technically incorrect but I hope you get the idea.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:21 pm

Do not speak thus. Do not misrepresent the Blessed One; for it is not good to misrepresent the Blessed One.
Dhamma is karma & rebirth.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by chownah » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:40 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:21 pm
Do not speak thus. Do not misrepresent the Blessed One; for it is not good to misrepresent the Blessed One.
If you are replying to me: I did not represent anyone. I just gave my ideas. This may surprise you but I actually think about what the buddha said.....and sometimes it leads me to have ideas on my own....and sometimes I present my very own ideas right here on this forum.
chownah

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:32 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:40 am
sometimes I present my very own ideas right here on this forum.
you misrepresent the teaching

it is half the teaching and half your "very own ideas"
Dhamma is karma & rebirth.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:05 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:28 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:26 pm
If Buddha cannot help you, I cannot.
:shrug:
If I am to give cappuccino benefit of the doubt, I would say that his or her emptiness is the Venerable Nāgārjuna's emptiness, which is neither void nor substance, nor any combination of the two, nor something else.

Basically any 'stance' at all regarding Nibbāna, existence, or the self, etc, under those conditions (i.e. Madhyamaka), becomes a wrong view.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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