the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Dinsdale
Posts: 5302
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:28 am

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:37 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:20 am
Same thing. If the world is empty of a self, then there is no self in the world.
The difference is subtle.
You fail to appreciate the difference.
There is no practical difference.

The Sunna Sutta says the world is empty of a self or anything pertaining to the world. So are you proposing a self outside the world? If so, some sutta support for this view would be useful.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:03 pm

Again the difference is subtle.
And the difference must be appreciated.

Dinsdale
Posts: 5302
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:13 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:03 pm
Again the difference is subtle.
And the difference must be appreciated.
If you really think there is a practical difference, then explain it clearly what it is.


Dinsdale
Posts: 5302
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:23 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:19 pm
On Self, No Self, and Not-self
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
You are avoiding a straightforward question ( again ).

The Sunna Sutta says: "the world is empty of a self, or anything pertaining to a self". What is the practical difference between that and "there is no self in the world"?

If you are proposing a self outside the world, then lets see some sutta passages which specifically support that view.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:26 pm

If Buddha cannot help you, I cannot.

Dinsdale
Posts: 5302
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:28 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:26 pm
If Buddha cannot help you, I cannot.
:shrug:

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:30 pm

There are three views. Self, no self, not-self.

Among those three, self and no self are extreme views.

Not-self is a middle view, between the extremes.

chownah
Posts: 6897
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by chownah » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:26 pm

The difference between saying there is no self and saying that everything I think of is not self is that it is possible for you to observe what you think of and determine that it is not self....your range of what you think of only includes the things you think of and it does not include the things which you do not think of. The things you do not think of are things which are out of range so it is not possible for you to determine if they are self or not.

IN summary: determening that there is no self is beyond range....determeing that you can not think of something which is self is within range since you can simply just sit and think of things and verify that you can not think of something which is self.

Not very artfully expressed and probably technically incorrect but I hope you get the idea.
chownah

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:21 pm

Do not speak thus. Do not misrepresent the Blessed One; for it is not good to misrepresent the Blessed One.

chownah
Posts: 6897
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by chownah » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:40 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:21 pm
Do not speak thus. Do not misrepresent the Blessed One; for it is not good to misrepresent the Blessed One.
If you are replying to me: I did not represent anyone. I just gave my ideas. This may surprise you but I actually think about what the buddha said.....and sometimes it leads me to have ideas on my own....and sometimes I present my very own ideas right here on this forum.
chownah

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:32 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:40 am
sometimes I present my very own ideas right here on this forum.
you misrepresent the teaching

it is half the teaching and half your "very own ideas"

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1581
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:05 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:28 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:26 pm
If Buddha cannot help you, I cannot.
:shrug:
If I am to give cappuccino benefit of the doubt, I would say that his or her emptiness is the Venerable Nāgārjuna's emptiness, which is neither void nor substance, nor any combination of the two, nor something else.

Basically any 'stance' at all regarding Nibbāna, existence, or the self, etc, under those conditions (i.e. Madhyamaka), becomes a wrong view.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgata-seed, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

User avatar
equilibrium
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:07 am

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by equilibrium » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:18 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:52 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:I'm still not clear on what your position is here.
No self is an extreme view to be rejected. Self is an extreme view.

Not self is different in a subtle way. Body isn't self, mind isn't self, etc.
Surely the middle-way will lead one out of Samsara?
cappuccino wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:04 pm
If you blow out a fire,
has reality itself disappeared with the fire?
Fire is fabricated and reality is unborn.....therefore reality hasn't disappeared!

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:49 pm

the truth is already true

form is not self already

hence nirvana is not annihilation

User avatar
equilibrium
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:07 am

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by equilibrium » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:27 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:49 pm
the truth is already true
Yet one is under delusion.
wrote: form is not self already
Fabrications had always been considered as both not-self and self.
wrote:hence nirvana is not annihilation
Yet where one escapes Samsara.

User avatar
Myotai
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:39 am

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Myotai » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:05 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:05 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:28 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:26 pm
If Buddha cannot help you, I cannot.
:shrug:
If I am to give cappuccino benefit of the doubt, I would say that his or her emptiness is the Venerable Nāgārjuna's emptiness, which is neither void nor substance, nor any combination of the two, nor something else.

Basically any 'stance' at all regarding Nibbāna, existence, or the self, etc, under those conditions (i.e. Madhyamaka), becomes a wrong view.
Blimey!

Can you offer a little more info to qualify that statement regarding the Madhyamaka?

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1581
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:37 pm

Myotai wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:05 pm
Blimey!

Can you offer a little more info to qualify that statement regarding the Madhyamaka?
Neither from itself, nor from another, nor from combination [of self and other], nor by eschewing causation, has anything ever arisen.

Some interpret the above as Ven Nagarjuna exempting the ultimate from any expression at all.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgata-seed, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

James Tan
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by James Tan » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:53 pm

If you can't pinpoint anything at all , how could anything being said arises or as being solid substance or being empty .

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1581
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:56 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:53 pm
If you can't pinpoint anything at all , how could anything being said [...] [to be] empty .
This is called śunyatāśunyatā or 空空 in Madhyamaka. It is the emptiness of emptiness itself.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgata-seed, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bundokji, justindesilva, pyluyten, Sam Vara, SDC, Zom and 75 guests