the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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theY
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Re: The Path to Nibbana

Post by theY » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:26 pm

SamKR wrote:
Mohan Gnanathilake wrote:How is Nibbana to be attained?
...
"Nibbana to be attained" sounds oxymoron to me because Nibbana is the end of attainments (or the obsessive need to attain anything), and it it a good example of limitation of language/concepts to talk about what is beyond concepts, and of course there is a need to use different seemingly contradictory statements aimed towards people at different levels of understanding.
:anjali:
Nibbāna to be attained=Saupādisesanibbānadhātu.
Nibbāna to be end of born=Anupādisesanibbānadhātu.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

theY
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by theY » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:35 pm

This forum have many topic of nibbana. So I make a new topic, that covered all topic. See:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 77#p408877
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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JMGinPDX
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LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by JMGinPDX » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:50 pm

Hello all -
As mentioned in a previous post, LP Sumedho visited our local center last month and I was able to shoot video and audio of the event and post it to our YouTube channel.

One statement Ven. Sumedho made in the Q&A session surprised me, and I wanted to get input from those more familiar than I am with his teachings and the Dhamma in general.

Go to 26:45 in this video:
https://youtu.be/1aRgIERpX3U

In the question, the woman asks if it's true that "consciousness is continuous but not permanent."
Luang Por responds by saying "no, I'm saying that consciousness is permanent."
There's an audible reaction from the audience (I think we had upwards of 200 people there), many of whom, like me, were a bit surprised by this statement.
He expands on his statement in the remainder of his answer, but I wanted to extract this for contemplation and discussion to see what others think and what your understanding is of what he said.

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Sam Vara
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:20 pm

JMGinPDX wrote:Hello all -
As mentioned in a previous post, LP Sumedho visited our local center last month and I was able to shoot video and audio of the event and post it to our YouTube channel.

One statement Ven. Sumedho made in the Q&A session surprised me, and I wanted to get input from those more familiar than I am with his teachings and the Dhamma in general.

Go to 26:45 in this video:
https://youtu.be/1aRgIERpX3U

In the question, the woman asks if it's true that "consciousness is continuous but not permanent."
Luang Por responds by saying "no, I'm saying that consciousness is permanent."
There's an audible reaction from the audience (I think we had upwards of 200 people there), many of whom, like me, were a bit surprised by this statement.
He expands on his statement in the remainder of his answer, but I wanted to extract this for contemplation and discussion to see what others think and what your understanding is of what he said.
I've attended a lot of L.P. Sumedho's dhamma talks, and this did seem to be a recurring theme. He didn't ever state it so bluntly, but there was a frequent reference to "awareness", "present moment awareness", "consciousness", etc., as if understanding it was somehow the goal of the practice. This is in line with his talks in the book "Intuitive Awareness". Consciousness is happening in the present moment, but is presented as unchanging - as if the contents of the consciousness are subject to change, but not the consciousness itself. There is an older tradition, stretching back at least as far as Ajah Chah, of the "poo roo" - the "one who knows".

Context is everything, of course (I haven't had time to view the video yet) and he might have meant that consciousness is permanent in terms of our experience of this life (i.e. it is the one factor which persists throughout our entire lives, from birth to death). If he meant, though, that there is an everlasting consciousness which is uncaused and which persists after our death, then I think he is at odds with what the Buddha taught.

I seem to recall earlier threads when this aspect of L.P. Sumedho's teaching has been raised.

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Aloka
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by Aloka » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:39 pm

.
I think perhaps it depends on what one's actual definition of "consciousness" is.

A little later in the video he seems to be refering to it as "awareness".

More about his use of the word "consciousness" can be found in Ajahn Amaro's introduction to Ajahn Sumedho's book "The Sound of Silence".

http://cdn.amaravati.org/wp-content/upl ... ilence.pdf

Ajahn Amaro comments in that introduction: "Since there is such a variety of meanings contingent upon the one word "consciousness" in this book, it would thus be wise for the reader always to reflect on the circumstances in which the word is being used."



:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Aloka
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by Aloka » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:46 pm

Sam Vara wrote:If he meant, though, that there is an everlasting consciousness which is uncaused and which persists after our death, then I think he is at odds with what the Buddha taught.
I've been to quite a few of his talks, as well as talked to him about my practice - and I'm pretty sure that he doesn't mean that!

:anjali:

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Sam Vara
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:04 pm

Aloka wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:If he meant, though, that there is an everlasting consciousness which is uncaused and which persists after our death, then I think he is at odds with what the Buddha taught.
I've been to quite a few of his talks, as well as talked to him about my practice - and I'm pretty sure that he doesn't mean that!

:anjali:
Yes, I would be surprised if he did. But his answer to the questioner seems quite unambiguous, and one might expect him to be aware of people's unease about the "poo roo" issue. He could have settled the issue of viññāṇa, and differentiated it from awareness. And in any case, is awareness permanent?

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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by JohnK » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:51 pm

It seems like he is using the English word "consciousness" here as a translation of the deathless (for whatever reason) -- though I only listened to the first minute or so after the question -- perhaps he goes on longer to explain.
[Yes, he goes on to repeat a few times that all sankharas are impermanent; that sense consciousness is impermanent; so he has some other meaning of "consciousness" as he's using it here, so it seems.]
"Why is it, Master Kaccana, that ascetics fight with ascetics?"
"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics" (AN 2: iv, 6, abridged).
Kindly eyes, not verbal daggers.

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Aloka
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by Aloka » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:36 pm

.
JohnK wrote:It seems like he is using the English word "consciousness" here as a translation of the deathless (for whatever reason) -- though I only listened to the first minute or so after the question -- perhaps he goes on longer to explain.
i didn't listen to it all either. He uses the word 'consciousness' quite a lot in the book I referenced in my previous post, so its worth having a look through it.

Regarding the Deathless, he says in the second chapter of the book :"Now what is the gate to the Deathless? This awareness, that is the gate. Awareness is the only possibility we have to get out of samsara - out of the birth and death cycle, Any other way is an illusion - its always here and now. That's why "I'll do it tomorrow " is another illusion you're creating here and now.

Awareness: you don't create it, you recognise it." [.....etc]




:anjali:

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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by aflatun » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:20 am

Interesting offerings from LP Sumedho, thanks for sharing.

In the Thai Forest tradition they tend to say things that can sound as if they're positing a transcendent mind or consciousness at times. This, and a great many other things about the tradition I think, strikes me as similar to Chan/Zen/Seon.

In the latter traditions when you dig a little deeper into what this "Mind" is it starts to look less and less like a transcendent consciousness and more and more like "code" for emptiness, anatta, etc, and this will of course vary with author.

With respect to the Thai Forest tradition I'm not as sure, but many of you all know the tradition way better than I do!

Here's a rough transcription, sorry for any mistakes, and make sure to listen for yourself!

***************************

26:47

Q: Um, I just have a question about um...It just keeps coming up about consciousness. Um, it sounds like what you're saying is that consciousness is continuous, but its not permanent. Is that...correct? And could you maybe expand on that.

LPS: No I'm saying consciousness is permanent.

:::Laughter:::

Its not about permanency, its about reality. Because impermanent and permanent but...Can something impermanent know something that's not impermanent? ...I mean like consciousness as unbounded unmeasurable...it has no beginning or end. All sankharas have beginning and ends. You know all conditions are impermanent. Sensory experience, consciousness through the senses is impermanent. But in terms of consciousness itself, its not. So its... and this is where you have to stop thinking about it and...and accept it. Because its like this. Because when you think about it then you'll start doubting it.

...

28:26

...consciousness through the senses, is impermanent. And so when we experience life only through the senses...through the seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking, feeling, emotional conditions, then, you know, its changing all the time, its very impermanent. All conditions are impermanent. Sabbe sankhara anicca. And so, what is aware of impermanence? Can an impermanent condition be aware of another impermanent condition?

******************************
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Sam Vara
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:18 am

aflatun wrote: Here's a rough transcription, sorry for any mistakes, and make sure to listen for yourself!
Hi aflatun,

Many thanks for taking the time and trouble to do this - much appreciated. I did listen to this bit, but not the whole thing.

Just a thought on a repeated theme:
Can something impermanent know something that's not impermanent?....Can an impermanent condition be aware of another impermanent condition?
I don't see why not. Sumedho might be right in stating that consciousness is permanent, but this is not a convincing argument for it being so.

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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:23 am

A good book to read about this subject.

http://cdn.amaravati.org/wp-content/upl ... zation.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by Spiny Norman » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:51 am

aflatun wrote:Can an impermanent condition be aware of another impermanent condition?
Perhaps it is like seeing movement against a background of stillness, change v. changeless.

In any case, what is being discussed here sounds more like sati sampajanna than vinnana.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Aloka
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by Aloka » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:25 pm

SarathW wrote:A good book to read about this subject.

http://cdn.amaravati.org/wp-content/upl ... zation.pdf
It's a good book to read in general!


:anjali:

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:08 pm

aflatun wrote: 28:26

...consciousness through the senses, is impermanent. And so when we experience life only through the senses...through the seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking, feeling, emotional conditions, then, you know, its changing all the time, its very impermanent. All conditions are impermanent. Sabbe sankhara anicca. And so, what is aware of impermanence? Can an impermanent condition be aware of another impermanent condition?

******************************
Thanks for the text!

I was reading some pages of this book and I read this sentence. "I am the one who knows I am" . And I reminded myself of these explanations of permanent and impermanent consciousness.
https://www.amazon.com/Dear-Glorious-Ph ... 1586172301
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by Circle5 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:38 pm

Is he part of the Thai Forest tradition ? If he is, there is nothing to be surprised about. Belief in a self and in consciousness in nibbana is very popular in that tradition. Why ? Because, as Buddha would say, "he has not fully understood it, I say".

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CedarTree
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by CedarTree » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:45 pm

Circle5 wrote:Is he part of the Thai Forest tradition ? If he is, there is nothing to be surprised about. Belief in a self and in consciousness in nibbana is very popular in that tradition. Why ? Because, as Buddha would say, "he has not fully understood it, I say".
He is part of Thai Forest, School of Ajahn Chah and considered a patriarch in that tradition.

He is referring to Consciousness without Surface I believe which in the Suttas is spoken of as Nibbana.


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Sam Vara
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:53 pm

Whatever he meant by this, let's all wish him a very happy eighty-second birthday - today!

:candle: x82

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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by chownah » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:54 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Circle5 wrote:Is he part of the Thai Forest tradition ? If he is, there is nothing to be surprised about. Belief in a self and in consciousness in nibbana is very popular in that tradition. Why ? Because, as Buddha would say, "he has not fully understood it, I say".
He is part of Thai Forest, School of Ajahn Chah and considered a patriarch in that tradition.

He is referring to Consciousness without Surface I believe which in the Suttas is spoken of as Nibbana.
I was not aware the conscoiunsess without surface means nibbana. Can someone bring a reference which says something to that effect as I would be interested in seeing it.
chownah

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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by JohnK » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:00 pm

CedarTree wrote: He is referring to Consciousness without Surface I believe which in the Suttas is spoken of as Nibbana.
Thanks for that -- that is what I was getting at in my post saying he must be referring to the deathless (nibbana) if he is talking about permanent (perhaps "code" as also noted above; obviously a bit confusing though!).
Can you provide a sutta reference for Consciousness w/o Surface? [Edit: posts are hitting fast -- didn't see chownah's post immediately above asking for similar]
Thanks!
"Why is it, Master Kaccana, that ascetics fight with ascetics?"
"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics" (AN 2: iv, 6, abridged).
Kindly eyes, not verbal daggers.

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