First and Third Noble Truth

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Kalama
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First and Third Noble Truth

Post by Kalama » Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:29 pm

Hi All,

As (bodily) pain is part of the 1st Truth , I am still pondering how to explain the cessation of suffering stated in the 3rd Noble Truth which is realized by the fruit of Arahantship. Though the application of Jhana is said to cease pain , it is a temporary solution and pain may arise again until natural death. Only idea so far : parinibbana is an option at the event of enlightenment .
Do you have a better suggestion? Comments appreciated .

Kalama

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Nicolas
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Re: First and Third Noble Truth

Post by Nicolas » Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:51 pm

The following thread might give some answers: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16390

Kalama
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Re: First and Third Noble Truth

Post by Kalama » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:19 pm

thanks .. I will have a closer look into that thread , hopefully it will say something related to the wording of both axioms:
DN 22 (trsl. Burma Pitaka Association:
387. Bhikkhus, what is the Noble Truth of ]Dukkha 93]
Birth[94] is dukkha. Aging also is dukkha. Death also is dukkha. Grief, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair are also dukkha. To have to associate with those persons or things one dislikes is also dukkha; to be separated from those one loves or likes is also dukkha; the craving for what one cannot get[95] is also dukkha; in short, the five Aggregates which are the objects of Clinging are dukkha.

393. And, bhikkhus, what is pain? The bodily pain and bodily unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by contact of the body, — this, bhikkhus, is called pain.

401. And, bhikkhus, what is the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Dukkha? It is the complete extinction and cessation of this very Craving, its abandoning and discarding, the liberation and detachment from it.[108]

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Nicolas
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Re: First and Third Noble Truth

Post by Nicolas » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:34 pm

Also see:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20843
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11665

An arahant then can still feel pain (bodily dukkha), but no distress results from it, and since there is no more craving, dukkha will finally be ended upon death with parinibanna.
Another way to look at it is to ask oneself, in the case of an arahant, "who feels dukkha?".

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Re: First and Third Noble Truth

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:08 pm

Nicolas wrote: An arahant then can still feel pain (bodily dukkha), but no distress results from it, and since there is no more craving, dukkha will finally be ended upon death with parinibanna.
But doesn't Nibbana correspond to the 3rd Noble Truth, the cessation of tanha and dukkha?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Nicolas
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Re: First and Third Noble Truth

Post by Nicolas » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:47 pm

An arahant can still feel pain:
It 44 wrote: What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
(The Angulimala sutta and Sallatha sutta also come to mind.)

Pain is dukkha:
Maha-satipatthana sutta wrote: Now what is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful; separation from the loved is stressful; not getting what one wants is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.
[...]
And what is pain? Whatever is experienced as bodily pain, bodily discomfort, pain or discomfort born of bodily contact, that is called pain.
BUT: the Sallatha sutta itself says:
Sallatha sutta wrote: Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
So it seems like that which was once stressful no longer is to the arahant.

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Mkoll
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Re: First and Third Noble Truth

Post by Mkoll » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:12 am

Nicolas wrote:Another way to look at it is to ask oneself, in the case of an arahant, "who feels dukkha?".
:thumbsup:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: First and Third Noble Truth

Post by Phena » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:45 am

Nicolas wrote:An arahant can still feel pain:
It 44 wrote: What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
Thanks Nicolas, I think this is the most succinct and realistic explanation of the Third Noble Truth. It's quite unequivocal in stating an arahant " ... still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain."

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Re: First and Third Noble Truth

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:01 pm

Phena wrote:
Nicolas wrote:An arahant can still feel pain:
It 44 wrote: What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
Thanks Nicolas, I think this is the most succinct and realistic explanation of the Third Noble Truth. It's quite unequivocal in stating an arahant " ... still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain."
Sure, but how can these experiences be dukkha for an Arahant, given that the Arahant has brought the 8-fold path to fruition and achieved unbinding, Nibbana, the accomplishment of the Third Noble Truth, ie cessation of dukkha.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Phena
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Re: First and Third Noble Truth

Post by Phena » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:13 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sure, but how can these experiences be dukkha for an Arahant, given that the Arahant has brought the 8-fold path to fruition and achieved unbinding, Nibbana, the accomplishment of the Third Noble Truth, ie cessation of dukkha.
I don’t think they are dukkha for an arahant. There is no more reactivity to “pleasure and pain” no more “second arrows”.

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Re: First and Third Noble Truth

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:26 pm

Phena wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
Sure, but how can these experiences be dukkha for an Arahant, given that the Arahant has brought the 8-fold path to fruition and achieved unbinding, Nibbana, the accomplishment of the Third Noble Truth, ie cessation of dukkha.
I don’t think they are dukkha for an arahant. There is no more reactivity to “pleasure and pain” no more “second arrows”.
Yes, that's my understanding of it. I think this goes to the heart of understanding what dukkha actually is.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Phena
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Re: First and Third Noble Truth

Post by Phena » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:38 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Phena wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
Sure, but how can these experiences be dukkha for an Arahant, given that the Arahant has brought the 8-fold path to fruition and achieved unbinding, Nibbana, the accomplishment of the Third Noble Truth, ie cessation of dukkha.
I don’t think they are dukkha for an arahant. There is no more reactivity to “pleasure and pain” no more “second arrows”.
Yes, that's my understanding of it. I think this goes to the heart of understanding what dukkha actually is.
Yes agree, and a realistic understanding of what the cessation of dukkha actually is too.

Kalama
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Re: First and Third Noble Truth

Post by Kalama » Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:09 pm

hence do we have to understand ' cessation of suffering ' as stated in the 3rd Noble Truth as almost true (due to the limitation expressed by other canonical sources) ?

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Re: First and Third Noble Truth

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:14 pm

Kalama wrote:hence do we have to understand ' cessation of suffering ' as stated in the 3rd Noble Truth as almost true (due to the limitation expressed by other canonical sources) ?
The Third Truth seems to describe the complete cessation of dukkha. What limitations did you have in mind?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Kalama
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Re: First and Third Noble Truth

Post by Kalama » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:25 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Kalama wrote:hence do we have to understand ' cessation of suffering ' as stated in the 3rd Noble Truth as almost true (due to the limitation expressed by other canonical sources) ?
The Third Truth seems to describe the complete cessation of dukkha. What limitations did you have in mind?
[/quote]


bodily pain as e.g. endured by the Buddha

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