Questions about hell

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
santa100
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Re: Questions about hell

Post by santa100 »

And you also seem to say the kamma of the hell officer is "completely bad" which I already made a case against. And again, I'm looking for specific references about the future state of these beings, not general analysis. Anyway, even Ven. Dhammanando's analysis seems to disagree with your "completely bad" kamma position:
Ven. Dhammanando wrote:The effect of the pre-volition (or in modern parlance, the motive) is twofold: firstly it mitigates the degree of unwholesomeness involved in the killing; secondly it is itself wholesome mind-door kamma.
versus yours:
Mkoll wrote:One could argue that the police officer's use of violence is not completely bad kamma but I don't think one can argue that the same for the torturer
Now I'm grateful for the venerable's analysis and more than happy to correct the previous view of "probably no" bad kamma to "some degree" of negative kamma. I certainly disagree with "completedly bad" kamma though..
SarathW
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Re: Questions about hell

Post by SarathW »

Any killing or inflicting pain can be done only with an unwholesome mind.
It does not matter whether you are a hell warden or a visitor to the hell.
His destination is back to the hell.
There is no ifs and or butts!
:guns:
PS: I am not saying that I do not kill or inflict pain on others but I don't want to justify my bad action.
I know it is bad so I try to avoid doing it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Mkoll
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Re: Questions about hell

Post by Mkoll »

santa100 wrote:And you also seem to say the kamma of the hell officer is "completely bad" which I already made a case against. And again, I'm looking for specific references about the future state of these beings, not general analysis. Anyway, even Ven. Dhammanando's analysis seems to disagree with your "completely bad" kamma position:
Ven. Dhammanando wrote:The effect of the pre-volition (or in modern parlance, the motive) is twofold: firstly it mitigates the degree of unwholesomeness involved in the killing; secondly it is itself wholesome mind-door kamma.
versus yours:
Mkoll wrote:One could argue that the police officer's use of violence is not completely bad kamma but I don't think one can argue that the same for the torturer
Now I'm grateful for the venerable's analysis and more than happy to correct the previous view of "probably no" bad kamma to "some degree" of negative kamma. I certainly disagree with "completedly bad" kamma though..
Actually you've misinterpreted my position. By "completely bad", I was talking about the whole picture, including the other factors involved like the motivation of trying to save an innocent person from suffering. Those factors make the whole situation not "completely bad." Also, Ven. Dhammanando is talking about the police officer in that quote you used, not the hell warden. So I'd say that he's saying it's not "completely bad" either. Do you see how I'm using that phrase now?

I've always maintained that the very act of killing or harming per se is always bad kamma. I've posted as much in previous threads like the Vens. Bodhi and Thanissaro on war one.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
santa100
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Re: Questions about hell

Post by santa100 »

Mkoll wrote:Actually you've misinterpreted my position. By "completely bad", I was talking about the whole picture, including the other factors involved like the motivation of trying to save an innocent person from suffering. Those factors make the whole situation not "completely bad." Also, Ven. Dhammanando is talking about the police officer in that quote you used, not the hell warden. So I'd say that he's saying it's not "completely bad" either. Do you see how I'm using that phrase now?

I've always maintained that the very act of killing or harming per se is always bad kamma. I've posted as much in previous threads like the Vens. Bodhi and Thanissaro on war one.
I simply provided my analysis based from what you quoted. But thanks for clarifying your position. That clears things up now.
Sanjay PS
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Re: Questions about hell

Post by Sanjay PS »

All these posts , point the one important thing ; Suffering is inherent in both the good and the bad . Even in the unending vicious cycle of the hell worlds where akusala kamma after akusala kamma is being heaped up , there comes a time when the ripening of a good kamma pushes up a being in states of well-being , carrying along the dormant seeds of the good and the bad . In beings of the higher realms , however be the heightened good , a ripening of a bad kamma , pulls down the being to lower planes , carrying along , both the seeds of the good and the bad . Just as we all display this same law within our body and minds .

Hence , does Lord Buddha describe samsara as vicious circle of life and living to be dreaded at all times , irrespective of our passing fortune or misfortunes..........i am reminded of a Dhamma Talk " It Can be Done " by Venrbale Ajhan Chah where it is mentioned :


"He ( Lord Buddha ) did not teach about gods and demons and nāga, protective deities, jealous demigods, nature spirits and the like. He taught the things that one should know and see."


( http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/It_Can_Be_Done.php )
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
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Aloka
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Re: Questions about hell

Post by Aloka »

Sanjay PS wrote:
"He ( Lord Buddha ) did not teach about gods and demons and nāga, protective deities, jealous demigods, nature spirits and the like. He taught the things that one should know and see."


( http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/It_Can_Be_Done.php )
I always find Ajahn Sumedho's words helpful in this context.
The only thing that’s certain about the future—the death of the body—is something we try to ignore. Just thinking about the word death stops the mind, doesn’t it? It does for me. It’s not particularly polite or politically correct to speak of death in casual conversation. What is death? What will happen when I die? Not knowing upsets us. But it is unknown, isn’t it?

We don’t know what will happen when the body dies.We have various theories—like reincarnation or being rewarded by a better rebirth or being punished by a worse birth. Some people speculate that once you’ve attained human birth, you may still be reborn as a lower creature. And then there’s the school that says no, once you’ve taken birth in the human form, then you cannot be reborn as a lower creature. Or the belief in oblivion—once you’re dead, you’re dead. That’s it. Nothing left. Finito. The truth of the matter is that nobody really knows. So we often just ignore it or suppress it.

But this is all happening in the now. We’re thinking of the concept of death in the present. The way the word death affects consciousness is like this. This is knowing not knowing in the now. It’s not trying to prove any theory. It’s knowing: the breath is like this; the body like this; the moods and mental states are like this. This is developing the path. Saying “like this” is just a way of reminding oneself to see this moment as it is rather than to be caught in some idea that we’ve got to do something or find something or control something or get rid of something.

Developing the path, cultivating bhavana is not only formal meditation that we can only do at a certain place, under certain conditions, with certain teachers. That’s just another view we’re creating in the present.

Observe how you practice in daily life—at home, with your family, on the job. The word bhavana means being aware of the mind wherever you are in the present moment. I can give you advice about developing sitting meditation—so many minutes every morning and every evening—which is certainly to be considered. It’s useful to develop discipline, to take some time in your daily life to stop your activities, the momentum of duties, the responsibilities and habits. But what I’ve found to really help me the most has been to reflect and pay attention to the here and now.

It’s so easy to be planning the future or remembering the past especially when nothing really important is happening right now: “I’m going to be teaching a meditation retreat in the future,” or “My trip to Bhutan was a really special visit to an exotic country in the Himalayas.” But so much of life is not special; it’s like this. And even going to marvelous places in the Himalayas is what it is—trees, sky, consciousness; it’s not all that different. It’s just the hype we give it.

I also hear people suffering a lot about things they’ve done or things they shouldn’t have done—mistakes, crimes, terrible things they said in the past. They can become obsessed because once they start remembering the mistakes of the past it creates a whole mood. All the guilty moments of the past can come flooding back in and destroy one’s life in the present. Many people end up stuck in a very miserable hell realm that they’ve created for themselves.

But this is all happening in the present, which is why this present moment is the door to liberation.

http://wap.goodweb.cn/news/news_view.asp?newsid=58808
:anjali:
SarathW
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Re: Questions about hell

Post by SarathW »

29. Who Deserves Punishment?
“The Blessed One said, ‘Doing no injury to anyone, dwell
full of love and kindness in the world.’131 Yet he also said,
‘Restrain him who deserves restraint and encourage him
who deserves encouragement.’132 Now, restraint means the
cutting off of hands and feet, imprisonment and so forth. If
the first statement is correct then the second cannot be
right.”
“O king, to do no injury is a doctrine approved of by
all the Buddhas; the second injunction however was used
figuratively. It means restrain the agitated mind, encourage
the slothful mind; restrain the unwholesome mind, encourage
the wholesome mind; restrain unwise reflection, encourage
wise reflection; restrain wrong practice, encourage
right practice; the ignoble should be restrained, the noble
encouraged; the thief [the evil-minded monk who desires
gain, praise and fame] should be restrained and the honest
man [the sincere monk who desires only to destroy defilements]
should be encouraged.”
“Now you have come round to the sense in my question.
For how, venerable Nàgasena, is a robber to be subdued?"
“Thus, great king: if deserving rebuke let him be
rebuked, if deserving a fine let him be fined, if deserving
banishment let him be banished, if deserving death let him
be put to death.”
“Is then, Nàgasena, the execution of robbers part of
the doctrine laid down by the Tathàgata?”
“Certainly not, O king. Whosoever may be put to
death, he does not suffer execution by reason of the opinion
put forward by the Tathàgata. He suffers by reason of what
he himself has done.”133

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/milinda.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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