Zen, Zazen and Dogen

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: Zen, Zazen and Dogen

Post by tiltbillings »

theend wrote:
Anagarika wrote:[...] cutting food and boiling rice as enlightenment [...]
In case of an arahat (with both personality-view and the conceit "I am" absent), yes. In any other case, no.
So, you are saying that you cannot do these actions fully attentive, without being lost in a sense of self. That is sad.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Viscid
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Re: Zen, Zazen and Dogen

Post by Viscid »

tiltbillings wrote:
theend wrote:
Anagarika wrote:[...] cutting food and boiling rice as enlightenment [...]
In case of an arahat (with both personality-view and the conceit "I am" absent), yes. In any other case, no.
So, you are saying that you cannot do these actions fully attentive, without being lost in a sense of self. That is sad.
Perhaps this is tangential, but what exactly constitutes a 'sense of self' is not clear. There are those who say they experience a sense of selflessness which goes beyond simply not engaging in self-reflective activity. As though 'selfness' is a property of the individual that is maintained regardless of what one's attention is temporarily absorbed in, and is lost after a dramatic transformative insight or process. This is probably Hakuin's version of enlightenment-- perhaps gesturing toward the perennial fissure between sudden vs gradual enlightenment.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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tiltbillings
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Re: Zen, Zazen and Dogen

Post by tiltbillings »

Viscid wrote:
Perhaps this is tangential, but what exactly constitutes a 'sense of self' is not clear. There are those who say they experience a sense of selflessness which goes beyond simply not engaging in self-reflective activity. As though 'selfness' is a property of the individual that is maintained regardless of what one's attention is temporarily absorbed in, and is lost after a dramatic transformative insight or process. This is probably Hakuin's version of enlightenment-- perhaps gesturing toward the perennial fissure between sudden vs gradual enlightenment.
A lot of questions get raised here. Selflessness, in and of itself, is not necessarily the goal, given that a sense of selflessness can be attained any number of ways that have little or nothing to do with the Dhamma.

Dogen’s famous passage from the Genjo-koan:
      • "To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by shoho, all dharmas. To be enlightened by all dharmas is to remove the barrier between self and other."


The first thing in this passage is the "Buddha's Way," which is to be attentive to what makes us up, our interpedently arising and falling experience, the khandhas, the all. We can think about it at great length, and to some degree that is important, but it is in the attention that we cultivate in meditation and in our lives that we see the nature of the self and where our understanding shifts. Selflessness can come about as a result of a suppression of the sense of self, or it can come about from a understanding of its nature, which is the Buddha's Way. "All dharmas," which is attentiveness to our very experiences -- all of our experiences -- all that we are no matter where you look. Where else, and how else, would awakening be/happen?

So, it is "selflessness" in that context I am talking about.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Viscid
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Re: Zen, Zazen and Dogen

Post by Viscid »

tiltbillings wrote:Dogen’s famous passage from the Genjo-koan:
      • "To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by shoho, all dharmas. To be enlightened by all dharmas is to remove the barrier between self and other."


The first thing in this passage is the "Buddha's Way," which is to be attentive to what makes us up, our interpedently arising and falling experience, the khandhas, the all. We can think about it at great length, and to some degree that is important, but it is in the attention that we cultivate in meditation and in our lives that we see the nature of the self and where our understanding shifts. Selflessness can come about as a result of a suppression of the sense of self, or it can come about from a understanding of its nature, which is the Buddha's Way. "All dharmas," which is attentiveness to our very experiences -- all of our experiences -- all that we are no matter where you look. Where else, and how else, would awakening be/happen?

So, it is "selflessness" in that context I am talking about.
Understood. But, when you said:
tiltbillings wrote:
theend wrote:
Anagarika wrote:[...] cutting food and boiling rice as enlightenment [...]
In case of an arahat (with both personality-view and the conceit "I am" absent), yes. In any other case, no.
So, you are saying that you cannot do these actions fully attentive, without being lost in a sense of self. That is sad.
It sounded as though your notion of 'selflessness' depended entirely on how one immediately attends to the world. However, gaining deep insight into the nature of the self is an event or process which enduringly changes way the individual understands the world. A novice who mindfully boils rice simply because they were instructed to do so cannot be said to be as equally enlightened as a Zen master who boils rice in exactly the same manner. What makes the Zen Master different is his depth of understanding on the nature of the self and world. So, while doing zazen can be said to be an expression of enlightenment, or the path to it, it is understandably confusing to insinuate that it is the very whole of enlightenment.
Last edited by Viscid on Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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tiltbillings
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Re: Zen, Zazen and Dogen

Post by tiltbillings »

Viscid wrote: . . .
Awakening is a process.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alex123
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Re: Zen, Zazen and Dogen

Post by Alex123 »

Viscid wrote:Perhaps this is tangential, but what exactly constitutes a 'sense of self' is not clear.
It is thinking and feeling that this is "I or mine". It is addition to 6 sense experience.

Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, bare perception, etc is identical for the Arhat and worldling.

Arhat just doesn't add akusala on top of 6 sense experience.
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Anagarika
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Re: Zen, Zazen and Dogen

Post by Anagarika »

Francis Cook's article in the Journal of Buddhist Studies ( https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/i ... /8591/2498 )discusses very capably the distinction between the gradual path toward enlightenment of the Indian texts and the later Chinese schools that preceded Dogen. The article makes clear that Dogen's approach to enlightenment was not a gradual process at all, but one that correlates with sudden or intrinsic enlightenment:

"However, if by "gradual" is meant either that realization is necessarily preceded by preliminary moral purification, scriptural study, and some sort of study of certain Buddhist truths, or that enlightenment itself may be acquired progressively and piecemeal (which are the two possible meanings of "gradual"), then there is no way that enlightenment can be gradual in Dogen's Zen. For want of a better term, let us call Dogen's view of enlightenment one of "suddenly-suddenly-suddenly," or perhaps "suddenly time after time. It is unique to Dogen."

" Finally, it is noteworthy that the venerable teaching of sudden enlightenment in the form reconceptualized and deepened by Dogen served very well his mission of creating a universal, practicable religion suited to the needs of the masses. His central teaching of universal Buddhahood, the oneness of practice and realization, and the conduct of the ordinary affairs of life as a means of expressing intrinsic enlightenment accomplished several important things. First, it made enlightenment a real possibility for common people, by eliminating its older associations of remoteness, improbability, and extraordinariness, and showing that, on the contrary, it was available to ordinary folk, that it was related to ordinary problems, and that it could be pursued within the context of ordinary life. The similarity between Dogen's teaching and those of Suzuki Shosan and Ikkyu, for instance, lies in the idea that enlightenment is merely a certain manner of taking care of one's rather ordinary life, not something mysterious and out of reach to plain people. Thus, such a humanization and demystifcation of enlightenment also tended to eliminate the doubt or anxiety over the ordinary man's ability to achieve the genuine, full goals of the religious life. The ignorant, stupid, and unwashed are no less Buddhas than Monju or Fugen, and have the means of actualizing that Buddhahood while planting rice or cutting wood. " Cook, p. 28

One of the other contributors to this theme used the word "confusion," and that is the issue that is of concern when trying to mix the oil of Dogen with the pure water of the Buddha's Dhamma. Dogen's Dharma confuses the teachings of the Buddha, if not outright rejecting them. His view is a very original, unique and sometimes confusing view that I find very difficult to reconcile with the Buddhadhamma.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Zen, Zazen and Dogen

Post by tiltbillings »

Anagarika wrote: . . .
Also, don't forget that sudden awakening is very much part of the Theravada tradition.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Zen, Zazen and Dogen

Post by tiltbillings »

Anagarika wrote:"First, it made enlightenment a real possibility for common people, by eliminating its older associations of remoteness, improbability, and extraordinariness, and showing that, on the contrary, it was available to ordinary folk, that it was related to ordinary problems, and that it could be pursued within the context of ordinary life. The similarity between Dogen's teaching and those of Suzuki Shosan and Ikkyu, for instance, lies in the idea that enlightenment is merely a certain manner of taking care of one's rather ordinary life, not something mysterious and out of reach to plain people. Thus, such a humanization and demystifcation of enlightenment also tended to eliminate the doubt or anxiety over the ordinary man's ability to achieve the genuine, full goals of the religious life. The ignorant, stupid, and unwashed are no less Buddhas than Monju or Fugen, and have the means of actualizing that Buddhahood while planting rice or cutting wood. "
Beats the crap out the mystifying and dour process that the Buddha's teaching is so often portrayed as being.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Aloka
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Re: Zen, Zazen and Dogen

Post by Aloka »

Sudden awakening is also described in Tibetan Buddhism.... in a rather violent way in the case of Naropa and his guru Tilopa:
After undergoing so much suffering, Naropa once again asked Tilopa to give him the profound teachings. Tilopa said, "You are not yet pure enough to be introduced to the nature of mind!"

With a wrathful expression, Tilopa removed his slipper and slapped the face of Naropa so hard that Naropa fainted. When he regained consciousness, Naropa's mental state of realization was equal to that of his teacher.

http://www.kagyu.org/kagyulineage/lineage/kag03.php

.
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Zen, Zazen and Dogen

Post by m0rl0ck »

And now for a commercial break apropos to the discussion:

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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Anagarika
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Re: Zen, Zazen and Dogen

Post by Anagarika »

And the obligatory beer commercial:



No actually, we do need to have beliefs. And goals. There are instructions, paths, and truths that lead us in the right direction, and others that lead us astray. And in the words of the great Suzuki Roshi, we need not be attached to beliefs, but to develop insight as to how these beliefs are created. So, a misinformed Zen idea that we are to believe in nothing runs contrary to the idea that we have faith in the Four Noble Truths, and appreciate that yes, the "dour" practice of building our house involves rights views, effort, intention, time, and the correct approach to meditation. As Thanissaro's analogy points out, we are building a house and the strength of that house depends on the strength and arrangement of the materials that comprise the house. You can't build a strong, enduring house in a day. The foundation takes time to pour and settle, the walls and beams need to be engineered correctly. The roof needs to be strong, and the underlying structure needs to fully support the roof. This strong and enduring house takes time, effort and a good set of well engineered plans. The Buddhadhamma is that well engineered set of plans. We choose our materials and provide the effort and action. The result is the quality of the engineering, materials, time and effort that we put into it.
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Myotai
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Re: Zen, Zazen and Dogen

Post by Myotai »

I feel like this thread is naturally winding down now...which is fine.

I am no wiser in terms of many of the initial points I raised. Specifically how Dogen equates sitting with enlightenment.

Thanks for all the posts though "...its been emotional..." :anjali:
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Re: Zen, Zazen and Dogen

Post by Goofaholix »

Myotai wrote:I am no wiser in terms of many of the initial points I raised. Specifically how Dogen equates sitting with enlightenment.
It's simply a reorientation of View; "The Journey is the Destination" see https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=the+j ... d=0CDIQsAQ
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Zen, Zazen and Dogen

Post by alan »

Myotai: If you sense that 'just sitting" is a waste of time, you're not alone. Many of us came to Theravada after frustrations with illogical Zen stuff. Don't be dissuaded--you're on the right track.
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