Kind of as opposed to the "what's wrong with masterbation" discussion, perhaps it would be helpful to share methods and insights related to the cessation of clinging and desire- liberation from pleasures that attract us, breaking free....
What strategies and teachings have been most helpful, in your experience? How best to apply the Buddha's advice, in the modern world? What cravings and temptations have been most difficult for you to keep a distance from or untangle?
How does our practice help us to break free? In my own experience i've noticed that the calmer and more relaxed my mind is, the easier it is to simply watch desires arise and pass away. If I'm thinking too much, feeling anxious or excited, even a little bit, desires will rise up, my mind starts looking around for a bite of this, some "good" music or other "pleasurable" distractions.
What have you noticed, in your own experience?
tangled up in dukkha, breaking free
- christopher:::
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tangled up in dukkha, breaking free
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
- tiltbillings
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free
Just an aside.
You need to use your spelling checker."what's wrong with masterbation"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- retrofuturist
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free
Greetings Chris:::,
Sense restraint, built upon a sound practice of sila.
See:
Right Restraint - Ajahn Chah
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Right_Restraint.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SN 35.127: Bharadvaja Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta,
Retro.
Sense restraint, built upon a sound practice of sila.
See:
Right Restraint - Ajahn Chah
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Right_Restraint.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SN 35.127: Bharadvaja Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- christopher:::
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free
Thanks, Tilt. It's one of those words i kinda try to get out and then away from quickly...tiltbillings wrote:Just an aside.
You need to use your spelling checker."what's wrong with masterbation"
Thank you Retro. The second link was excellent! I'll get back to you concerning the first.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Chris:::,
Sense restraint, built upon a sound practice of sila.
See:
Right Restraint - Ajahn Chah
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Right_Restraint.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SN 35.127: Bharadvaja Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta,
Retro.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
- tiltbillings
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free
Thanks, Tilt. It's one of those words i kinda try to get out and then away from quickly...christopher::: wrote:tiltbillings wrote:Just an aside.
You need to use your spelling checker."what's wrong with masterbation"
Sure; otherwise something might stick to you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- christopher:::
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free
Yessssssssss........tiltbillings wrote:
Sure; otherwise something might stick to you.
BTW, concerning your sig line:
How do you view the importance of karma, in relation to the topic here?"This being is bound to samsara, karma is his means for going beyond."
SN I, 38.
It seems to me right effort, right restraint are most essential. What is the role of karma?
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
- tiltbillings
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free
So that we are on the same page: what is kamma?christopher::: wrote:What is the role of karma?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- Cittasanto
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free
at the moment I am trying to practice restraint in speach, only saying what I think is necessary or of some value (even if it seams silly ), and trying to not engage in agressive discussions, which can be a problem particularly on the net.
I am also trying to be honest with myself more, reflecting on what personal narative I am building and how true it is to me as a person conventually, and what my goal is.
for me it has been a trying few weeks and one I am sure will shape the future in a way I may not like when I get there, there has been anger, depression, drink, lack of heedfulness and mindfulness and other unworthy actions in the last few weeks which have not been useful to my circumstances.
I am also trying to be honest with myself more, reflecting on what personal narative I am building and how true it is to me as a person conventually, and what my goal is.
for me it has been a trying few weeks and one I am sure will shape the future in a way I may not like when I get there, there has been anger, depression, drink, lack of heedfulness and mindfulness and other unworthy actions in the last few weeks which have not been useful to my circumstances.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free
Hi Christopher:::
Imo, "liberation from pleasures" isn't a goal of Dharma practice...rather, we aspire to liberation from the reactive workings of the mind in relationship to pleasures.
The practices of restraint and good conduct, as Retro recommends, are enormously valuable in order to manage and de-energize reactive impulse and behavior that arises from attachment, which we do in order to aid in calming and quieting the mind/senses so that we create the conditions of mind that enable us to recognize the true nature of phenomenal appearances and experiences, including pleasure.
It's a matter of emphasis...we don't want to get stuck in behavior management. For example: in AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) behavior management is a critically important step, but once the behavior is restrained then the rest of the work has to take place to avoid becoming what is known as a "dry drunk". There's a lot of of "dry pleasurist" practitioners in Buddhism. Restraining behavior by itself isn't enough and it isn't the goal...it is a practice that forwards the ultimate goal of Dharma practice, and the ultimate liberation.
Pleasure happens, we can't control that. We're biologically programmed to experience pleasure for good reasons. It's how we perceive and relate to pleasure that's the goal of the Dharma. Once we see pleasure for what it is (aided by restraint, good conduct, and concentrative observation) then we use it skillfully, beneficially. Ultimately, pleasure should be regarded as medicine - not to be avoided and not used as a crutch. The same goes for restraint....it should be regarded and used as if medicine, not as a crutch.
[readers: since this is a Theravada room, I draw your attention to the disclaimer in my signature]
liberation from pleasures
Imo, "liberation from pleasures" isn't a goal of Dharma practice...rather, we aspire to liberation from the reactive workings of the mind in relationship to pleasures.
The practices of restraint and good conduct, as Retro recommends, are enormously valuable in order to manage and de-energize reactive impulse and behavior that arises from attachment, which we do in order to aid in calming and quieting the mind/senses so that we create the conditions of mind that enable us to recognize the true nature of phenomenal appearances and experiences, including pleasure.
It's a matter of emphasis...we don't want to get stuck in behavior management. For example: in AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) behavior management is a critically important step, but once the behavior is restrained then the rest of the work has to take place to avoid becoming what is known as a "dry drunk". There's a lot of of "dry pleasurist" practitioners in Buddhism. Restraining behavior by itself isn't enough and it isn't the goal...it is a practice that forwards the ultimate goal of Dharma practice, and the ultimate liberation.
Pleasure happens, we can't control that. We're biologically programmed to experience pleasure for good reasons. It's how we perceive and relate to pleasure that's the goal of the Dharma. Once we see pleasure for what it is (aided by restraint, good conduct, and concentrative observation) then we use it skillfully, beneficially. Ultimately, pleasure should be regarded as medicine - not to be avoided and not used as a crutch. The same goes for restraint....it should be regarded and used as if medicine, not as a crutch.
[readers: since this is a Theravada room, I draw your attention to the disclaimer in my signature]
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
- retrofuturist
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free
Greetings,
Metta,
Retro.
FWIW, none of that seemed particularly controversial to me.pink_trike wrote:[readers: since this is a Theravada room, I draw your attention to the disclaimer in my signature]
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- pink_trike
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free
Not controversial, but perhaps not entirely consistent with traditional Theravada.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
FWIW, none of that seemed particularly controversial to me.pink_trike wrote:[readers: since this is a Theravada room, I draw your attention to the disclaimer in my signature]
Metta,
Retro.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free
Relax Geoff!
You're welcome here.
I actually felt that what you said was fairly consistent with Theravada.
In fact, on your point of 'freedom from pleasure' not being part of the goal, I think you are right.
The Buddha defined vedana by its salient characteristic of either pleasurable, painful or neutral (neither pleasurable nor painful).
Kind regards
Ben
You're welcome here.
I actually felt that what you said was fairly consistent with Theravada.
In fact, on your point of 'freedom from pleasure' not being part of the goal, I think you are right.
The Buddha defined vedana by its salient characteristic of either pleasurable, painful or neutral (neither pleasurable nor painful).
Kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- christopher:::
- Posts: 1327
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am
Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free
Very useful observations, pink trike (Jeff).
This is something i've heard from others and have also experienced. You start to make efforts at changing your behavior, at self-restraint, and feel like crap.
Do you find any of pink trike's ideas helpful?
LOL, i don't know the context of the quote in your sig, Tilt, so to be on the same page i'd have to wait and hear how you think of it, and how its meant in that quotation...tiltbillings wrote:So that we are on the same page: what is kamma?christopher::: wrote:What is the role of karma?
Sounds like its been a tough few weeks for you, Manapa. Sorry to hear that. Do you feel there is a relationship between your efforts to restrain your speech, your self reflection, and then the anger, depression and lack of heedfulness you are experiencing?Manapa wrote:at the moment I am trying to practice restraint in speach, only saying what I think is necessary or of some value (even if it seams silly ), and trying to not engage in agressive discussions, which can be a problem particularly on the net.
I am also trying to be honest with myself more, reflecting on what personal narative I am building and how true it is to me as a person conventually, and what my goal is.
for me it has been a trying few weeks and one I am sure will shape the future in a way I may not like when I get there, there has been anger, depression, drink, lack of heedfulness and mindfulness and other unworthy actions in the last few weeks which have not been useful to my circumstances.
This is something i've heard from others and have also experienced. You start to make efforts at changing your behavior, at self-restraint, and feel like crap.
Do you find any of pink trike's ideas helpful?
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free
Then you'll have to wait. You have a tendency put the heavy lifting answering questions on others here. The question is straightforward. It does not require a thesis be written. How do you understand what kamma is? It is the start of a dialogue if, you want such. If not, then not.christopher::: wrote:Very useful observations, pink trike (Jeff).
LOL, i don't know the context of the quote in your sig, Tilt, so to be on the same page i'd have to wait and hear how you think of it, and how its meant in that quotation...tiltbillings wrote:So that we are on the same page: what is kamma?christopher::: wrote:What is the role of karma?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- Fede
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free
I read a quotation which, although it could be possibly torn about a bit, made enormous sense, and its impact was huge to me:
"karma means that basically, you don't get away with anything. And it all counts".
Since then, I have learnt, understood and accepted for myself, that kamma is a result of a volitional, and deliberate action (be it mental, verbal or physical).
All conditions are Mind-Wrought.
Watch the thinking.
I mean, really watch it.
the rest will follow accordingly.....
What am I rambling on for?
Ok, I'm done.
Back to you guys.....
"karma means that basically, you don't get away with anything. And it all counts".
Since then, I have learnt, understood and accepted for myself, that kamma is a result of a volitional, and deliberate action (be it mental, verbal or physical).
All conditions are Mind-Wrought.
Watch the thinking.
I mean, really watch it.
the rest will follow accordingly.....
What am I rambling on for?
Ok, I'm done.
Back to you guys.....
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.
Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!
Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself.
I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?!
http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!
Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself.
I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?!
http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;